Crime and punishment

[curt_the_flirt]

I started a thread over at 1130, but I thought this might be a place people might feel more comfortable going into more depth. What are your thoughts?

I've read two very disturbing threads in the last few days about some people (for want of a better term) doing some very sickening and disgusting things to children and animals.

I wonder if we can ever deter this sort of thing with our current methods of punishment. At one time, public humilation and punishment was more common(putting in stocks, or pillories,etc), but as we have "advanced," we seem to favor just removing the offender from the public. I wonder if we've done ourselves a disservice by removing this sort of object lesson from public view. I realize that some of these sorts of punishment were taken to the point of being "cruel and unusual," but still, shouldn't we as a society see what we do to exact justice, and shouldn't we be reminded of the consequences of our behavior?

BTW, I do not intend for this to be a political post in the sense that one party does this and the other does that. I am asking this to see what others think.

["shazbat"]

Prison itself is no longer the deterent it was in past ages.
They're "humane"
No chains and shackles on the walls, no cold damp stone dungeons, no bread and water rations.

[curt_the_flirt]

Good point. In my personal life, I work with a number of individuals who are rehabbing from drug problems, and one theme I often hear was that jails and prisons were more like a "rest break."
And by saying that, I'm not saying I believe that prison should be draconian.

["shazbat"]

Good point. In my personal life, I work with a number of individuals who are rehabbing from drug problems, and one theme I often hear was that jails and prisons were more like a "rest break."
And by saying that, I'm not saying I believe that prison should be draconian.

Understood, but it should be prison and in a sense that it's NOT a place you want to be.

[nelson]

This is an interesting topic. Clearly our society has grown reluctant to implement real punishments.

In my mind, the explanation why we have become this way is macro-psychological. We (i.e. the West) have become over-emotionalist to the point of seeking to understand, and being empathetic toward, any kind of behavior.

In my opinion it's a symptom of a much larger social problem. Personally, I trace many social problems we're experiencing today back to the sweeping social movements of the sixties, and this one is no exception. Since that era I think we as a society have guilt-ridden ourselves to such a point that we are no longer capable of evaluating behavior; because of the guilt we have repeatedly infused ourselves with, many of us now believe the inherent judgementalism required to make such evaluations... is morally wrong.

I disagree. We cannot humanize the criminal; we must judge and punish the criminal's behavior.

Unfortunately we have already dug ourselves into the deep pit of self-loathing. Now it will be several generations before the guilt-reinforcing propaganda taught by the newly revised curricula in our schools, and the same propaganda in our current entertainment, advertising, and elsewhere, will finally be seen for what it is - fatal.

But if we are to thrive, we must start filling the pit. We cannot carry guilt; judgementalism is our friend.

[curt_the_flirt]

Shazbat, you are correct. It should not be a fun place to go. It should have the intended effect of deterrence and most of the time, from what I've seen it does not.

In the sense that there is a quest to understand, I agree, Nelson. I've often wondered why those who seek this method forego the necessary consequential complement. It's fine to try to understand, but that doesn't relieve the criminal of responsibility. Therein lies the problem. We want to believe that if we just understand what caused the behavior, we can somehow excuse it, as if the criminal will not do it again.
One of the things I remember from parenting my own children was how much it hurt me to have to discipline them. Still, without that discipline, they would have become self-serving sociopaths. I tried my best not to be inconsistent, or to just accept apology. There had to be consequences as well. I believe that is why they are both productive members of society, today (both nurses!). In many ways, it's no different with those who break the law. We can accept their apology or sorrow, but there still must be consequences or those apologies will ring hollow.

[The_Man]

One of the things I remember from parenting my own children was how much it hurt me to have to discipline them. Still, without that discipline, they would have become self-serving sociopaths. I tried my best not to be inconsistent, or to just accept apology. There had to be consequences as well. I believe that is why they are both productive members of society, today (both nurses!). In many ways, it's no different with those who break the law. We can accept their apology or sorrow, but there still must be consequences or those apologies will ring hollow.

Curt the flirt,
Great analogy and it has been backed up by thousands of years of human history to support this fundamental truth about human nature. When will we stop trying to reinvent the wheel and do what needs to be done.