Gun Control

[The_Man]

With the recent tragic shooting at Virginia Tech I am sure there will be another push to turn up the heat on the gun control debate. It has always been my contention that guns are not the problem but rather the person that choses to use them in an illegal manner.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55318

["shazbat"]

With the recent tragic shooting at Virginia Tech I am sure there will be another push to turn up the heat on the gun control debate. It has always been my contention that guns are not the problem but rather the person that choses to use them in an illegal manner.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55318

Yeah the old "guns don't kill prople, people kill people" argument, with which I basically have to agree.
I don't expect much to come from the anti-gun lobby on this one. I do expect some scrutiny to come about some avenues in which guns can be purchased as Cho managed to purchase one of the guns "on-line" but in the end there really was no legal reason under the law to deny him purchase.
I have listened to all of the coverage about the shootings and it seems that most of the effort by all parties is being put into distance themselves from possible culpability.
The guy was a wack job, he bought some guns, killed some people then himself. The fortunately and unfortunately is no "Minority Report" to predict who may or maynot go on a killing spree and handle them.
The freedom allowed to all of us by our system unfortunately also bars you from imprisoning people just for being weird, they have to actually commit some act before you can incarcerate.
While it won't stop the crazies I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Teiwaz]

As a non-American I will put on my flame suit and say this - your gun culture in the USA really makes a lot of the rest of the world scratch it's head. You quote statistics about how concealed carry permits reduces certain types of crime. But what about the gun deaths you have? I remember the stats were mind boggling high on a percapiita basis when compared to the rest of the world.

Have a look at the result of TOUGHER gun laws in Australia ; http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

I understand that you have a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. I realise you will never willingly step away from or put any limits on that. I know you have a passionate pro-gun lobby, and that anyone in America preaching tougher gun control gets shouted down.

But when I see a massacre like this I think - could it have happened in Australia? And the answer is of course yes. It COULD happen. But it would be much less likely because you can't just walk into a store and buy handguns. You need a license, and hand gun restricitions are tougher than rifles. A non-automatic rifle is harder to kill people with in great numbers than a hand gun, or 2 hand guns. There is no doubt in my mind that gun related massacres like this would be avoided or greatly moderated by sensible gun ownership laws. Plus, we just don't have the gun mentality you do. It is so ingrained in your history and culture. Funny thing is, it seems the whole right to bear arms thing was to assist the rasing of an army in time of need and protect the people from the chance it's own government might rise up in Tyranny against them. In a time when there was no standing army, and it might have made sense, but it seems anachronistic now. But hey, if you let someone impose some limits on that right, then the whole edifice supporting America could crumble. It's a slippery slope etc etc.

I LOVE guns, they fascinate me and I love shooting them. I have shot foxes, Kangaroos, big wild pigs and an unknown number of inanimate objects. I have never owned a gun. I knopw people who own them and they keep them under lock and key and use them at gun clubs or in the Bush where they serve a useful purpose. I would love to be able to carry a concealed weapon. It would be cool. Do I think it would be a good idea? Not really. I would hate to think there were a bunch of people with guns all around me, that half the houses in my streets had people with guns at their fingertips. Frankly it would make me very nervous.

And thats where you guys are at. What a social experiment. A lot of US citizens have guns, or there is certainly a perception to that effect. A lot of your crims are armed to the teeth in a way that just doesn't happen here. So you can't remove the guns, because only the good law abiding people would hand them over then you really do have a silly situation. So what do you do? Well, get MORE people to carry guns. Good people. So if a bad person goes a little nuts, a good person can drill a 9mm round through his brain pan before things get too out of hand.

You want to talk about slippery slopes?

The whole guns don't kill people line is horse manure in my opinion. Guns DO kill people. Virginia Tech would not have happened without guns - specifically hand guns and automatic ones at that. Try to kill that many people with a baseball bat or a knife.

[The_Man]

And thats where you guys are at. What a social experiment. A lot of US citizens have guns, or there is certainly a perception to that effect. A lot of your crims are armed to the teeth in a way that just doesn't happen here. So you can't remove the guns, because only the good law abiding people would hand them over then you really do have a silly situation. So what do you do? Well, get MORE people to carry guns. Good people. So if a bad person goes a little nuts, a good person can drill a 9mm round through his brain pan before things get too out of hand.

You want to talk about slippery slopes?

I agree with most if not all of what you said. As far as experiments go check out this link.
http://www.mcsm.org/kennesaw.html

It was a small town but as Atlanta grew and expanded its boundaries the crime from the city began to creep in and this was their novel and effective response. It won't work everywhere but seems to be working there at least until Atlanta consumes it in it's ever growing need to expand.
I myself am not a city dweller nor will I hopefully ever be and the proper use of a firearm was taught to me early in life. I am an avid hunter and enjoy practicing at the local gun club, reload my own ammunition but the main reason I keep guns is for protection. I never want to rely on anyone else to defend me or what is mine.
I think there will be a push to tighten down on some restrictions to purchase guns here in the States and maybe a background check to include possible mental problems is in order. This too is a slippery slope in that if you ask half the people who know me they would certify me bonkers. :D

["shazbat"]

Teiwaz, yeah guns do kill people, so do blades, hands, ropes, bombs, sticks, rocks etc.
It's just easier and somewhat more psychologically removed from the dirt of it with guns.
In the end people still kill people.
As for the "automatic" component the media only picks up on the automatic part of "semi-automatic". Scare tactics.
There are no bursts of fmultiple rounds at trigger pull, it just fires a single round as fast as you can pull the trigger.
By the same token so does a double action revolver and no one calls them "automatic".
I own guns and I've fired single action, double action, semi-auto and full auto.
I have no desire to shoot someone.
When i have a gun in my hand I don't have some maniacal transformation similar to the Jeckyll and Hyde that makes me a homicidal maniac.
You can show "statistics" to prove or rather sway any point you want to make.
Yeah we as a nation do have more fire arms in civilian hands than most other nations. As such we also have numerically more deaths commited by firearms.
I'd wager that percentage per capita we have no more homicides than many other nations.

[curt_the_flirt]

The whole guns don't kill people line is horse manure in my opinion. Guns DO kill people. Virginia Tech would not have happened without guns - specifically hand guns and automatic ones at that. Try to kill that many people with a baseball bat or a knife.


In fact, it could have happened without guns. The Oklahoma City Federal building bombing took considerably more lives, without the use of a single gun. In Lockerbie, Scotland, PanAm 103 was blown from the sky without the use of a single gun. The hijackers on the 9/11 flights were armed with box cutters, and killed more as well.

There is, probably not known to much of the rest of the world, a standard for the difference between arms and ordnance that was established by the Supreme Court in the 1800s. This is where the slope changes with respect to ownership. Is a gun part of the "arms" family, or is it ordnance because of the payload it delivers? That is why automatic weapons are already banned from private use (note I did not say semi-automatic).

[Teiwaz]

So what do you do? Well, get MORE people to carry guns. Good people. So if a bad person goes a little nuts, a good person can drill a 9mm round through his brain pan before things get too out of hand. This bit was kinda meant to be sarcastic - how the hell do you ever accomplish it? And you end up with this Mutually Assured Destruction situation and promote vigilantism.

That crackpot in Virginia would have done what he did even if he thought there would be people carrying in those classrooms.

["shazbat"]

That crackpot in Virginia would have done what he did even if he thought there would be people carrying in those classrooms.

You're absolutely correct.
He would have killed someway with what ever he could get.
The specific "tool" or "implement" is inconsequential.
The fact that he would likewise die or come to violent harm is also of no regard or deterent. It never is to the irrational mind.
Therein lies the dilemma.
We are allowed, meeting certain requirements to own weapons of a particular level, hand guns and long guns that are not fully automatic, automatic weapons with a special federal permit.
Individual state have differing laws regarding "carrying" weapons.
In most you cannot legally carry, either openly or concealed, without a state granted permit and some will not issue carry permits at all.
We have good control laws for those that obey laws.
Those that are going to break laws, whether knowingly or due to a demented mind will continue to do so.
Our "right" as a citizen "to keep and bear arms" is tempered by laws designed to protect the masses from general mishap.
They won't, as no amount of legislation, restriction or ban will, protect one from the demented, stupid or those that don't care.
Even in nations where guns are forbidden to the general public, those that want guns can get them.
How you may ask?
We're human, we're clever, creative.
In the back of the minds of 99.44% of us is that which tells us that while we're all equal, I'm just a little more equal than the rest.
It's about ME.
Oh, and my favorite mantra "rules are meant to be subverted"
This is not a national concept, it is universal.

[Freethinker]

"If guns kill people, all of mine are defective."

[BABY HUEY]

The whole guns don't kill people line is horse manure in my opinion. Guns DO kill people. Virginia Tech would not have happened without guns - specifically hand guns and automatic ones at that. Try to kill that many people with a baseball bat or a knife.

I want you to point out one single incident where a gun killed a person without human intervention.

You ain't gonna find it, even suicides and accidental shootings have human intervention. The gun didn't do it, the gun was just a material object used in the action. A human did the action.

I respect your beliefs and I wish you the best of luck when your door is breached by someone wanting to take your V-Rod and some of your other possessions. Especially if that person has a gun.

I personally am more afraid of the people who want to take the guns away from others using broadbrush rationale for taking weapons. I suffer from PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) which is a mental condition according to the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition), Paragraph 309.81. I suffer this as a result of the conflict in Vietnam and the trauma that I suffered from gunshot wounds and actions that impacted me during that conflict. Nothing in that manual says that I am a danger to self or others. I have been a citizen of the USA for 63 years now, and I have never used a weapon to assault another human being, even during the conflict in Vietnam. I was a helicopter pilot who flew "slicks" during that conflict, and my hands were full of flight controls of the aircraft and my job was to fly the aircraft. What I did and where I did it in Vietnam and the surrounding countries is a matter of public record. Yet, I fear that some anti-gun radical will try to take my weapons away.

By the way, one can get provable PTSD from an automobile crash or an incident where you fear for your life. Cases where women are raped cause PTSD, it doesn't make them crazy, but they do have a mental problem, is that enough to put them in an insane asylum? Therefore, almost everyone can get PTSD by the incidents in their lives. Is that a good reason to take a weapon away from a person for mental disorders?

Cho was a special case, he was judged to be a danger to himself and others by the legal system, yet the legal system failed. Cho bought weapons, the only thing that he proved was that it is easy to kill defenseless people who do not take action to save their own lives. I would have made a strategic withdrawal from the situation if I had been there. I would have jumped from several floors up if it is what I had to do to survive, but I am a survivor. I will take action to survive. I will at least try to get out of the way, and if that is impossible, I will attack with what ever I can get my hands on.

As for your comments about pistols and Semi-automatic rifles, I will challenge you. If, I decided to get one of those weapons, and I had a single shot rifle or shotgun, I would guarantee you that I would survive, and I would wind up with more automatic and semi-automatic weapons than you could count. If larger weapons were available, I would probably figure out how to get a few of them also. Thinking is the only requirement for procuring weapons for self defense, if you have a weapon that has the capability to fire a single shot accurately you can get more weapons. One can do the same thing with a knife or a baseball bat, but it is safer with a gun. One just has to have a fear for one's life to go after people with weapons who one might consider to be an enemy, and if they are an armed enemy what are you going to do, wait for them to come get you?

Yesterday, a car went out of control in Tennessee and killed seven people in a crowd. Is that an excuse for banning cars?

In Australia, you have a current gun ban. How many criminals turned in their weapons? I am willing to bet that several criminals in your area still have weapons. Are you comfortable with that? How long does it take for your legal authorities to respond in the area where you live? Five minutes, twenty minutes, what ever it is it is too long if the person causing the problem has an intent to take something from you or harm you with a weapon.

Feel great comfort in your status of being unarmed! The criminals and terrorists are all armed. They didn't turn in or register their weapons.

I WISH YOU WELL WHILE YOU WAIT FOR SOMEONE TO DEFEND YOU! I pray that they get there in time to save your life.

[Freethinker]

I bring this from the v-Rod forum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeo05uPMmn4

It sparked quite a bit of discussion there.

[SummittKing]

I grew up in a very rough neighborhood in Chicago during the 60's and 70's. Lots of people got killed. When I was about 8 or 9 there were a rash of bus driver robberies and murders. My cousin was a Chicago Transit Authority (CTA) driver who worked very hard on the mid-night shift and often did overtime to support his family. I once asked him if he carried a gun with him and he replied "NO". I thought this odd and asked him why? "Because, if you carry a gun, you tend to think you are bad..." he replied. I simply shook my head not quite understanding.

During my time growing up I was threatened with guns and knives on several occaissions. I was jumped and beat severely by two racists upset that their neighborhood had changed. So, at the age of 20 or so, I decided that I would carry a gun (illegally of course).

Shortly thereafter, I am a college student on a CTA bus in down town Chicago. As soon as I boarded the bus I noticed that there were just a few people on the bus including a man with his wife and two kids, a rather cute looking female and what appeared to be 3 west side gang bangers.

As soon as the bus took off, the non-sense began. One of the bangers started to harrass the man and his family. They even took the baby out of the mother's arm and started to pass the child around. It occurred to me that this had been going on since before I got on. The poor father was really scared. Hell, everyone on the bus was scared! I resolved to mind my own business until my stop came up and hoped that they would ignore me and my gun.

Soon after one of the guys sat next to the cute female and started trying to talk to her and when she turned down his advances, he started trying to kiss her and feel her up. Now my heart is really beating hard. I stood up with my had on the gun in my overcoat pocket and called out for the bus driver to "stop the bus!!"

When the bus came to a stop I looked at the bangers and told them to get off the bus. They looked at me like I was crazy. I wasn't a very big guy back then and I did not look tough in any way. Thank God they complied and left the bus and the driver took off.

Afterward, I sat there and shook all over thinking what if. There is little doubt that I would have shot that pistol. What if someone had gotten killed? My college career would have ended on that stupid CTA bus! What if I had hit one of the innocents? What if they had guns of their own and a shootout had occurred?

Now I understood what my cousin had tried to tell me all those years before: owning a gun is one thing, but having a gun with you as a matter of routine can lead to TROUBLE. Back then in Chicago, trouble was not hard to find. There were way too many opportunities to get twisted up.

A couple of days later, I started to leave the gun at home. I had some type of withdrawal at first but after a week or so that passed.

[vrodderD]

I bring this from the v-Rod forum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeo05uPMmn4

It sparked quite a bit of discussion there.


Ya know, I was the one who posted the video thinking it was just freakin funny. I guess the liberal wacko's took offense. Maybe cuz it was on Fox News instead of MSNBC is what made them draw their guns on it...(pun intended :D)

[richardson]

With the recent tragic shooting at Virginia Tech I am sure there will be another push to turn up the heat on the gun control debate. It has always been my contention that guns are not the problem but rather the person that choses to use them in an illegal manner.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55318

I doubt very much if more gun control would have made any difference. I could go to any state in the United States or any country in the world and find out in a day where I could buy a gun. As long as there are guns there will be places to buy them and as long as there are armys there will be guns. On the other hand I do believe that a small amount of gun control is good. I am a gun owner and live in California, a state that has taken gun control too far, however, I do believe that fully automatic weapons should be, as they are, illegal and I believe that registration with a proper fast background check is a good thing. Registration will not stop bgangs and criminals from obtaining guns but it might stop someone who has temporarily lost his or her senses from buying one.