Continuation of the "other" forum comments...

[gtrman66]

Ok, so we have 4.5% unemployment. That's a nationwide number... it varies from place to place. And since this does not take into account those unemployed for > 6 months it is higher.

The argument goes; illegals take the jobs Americans do not or will not take.

First, this is completly wrong. Illegal workers have effectively destroyed the living wage associated with construction, sanitation, food preparation etc... They have "stolen" the entry level jobs that high-schoolers and young people traditionally held.

Secondly, the unavailability of labor can lead to inventions like combines, cotton gin, CNC machining centers. With cheap labor, why invest in R&D that leads to better/faster/cheaper/safer solutions?

Third, Does this mean that people who illegally come into the US should get priority on these jobs? Why is Mexico the "sole" benefactor? Is this strictly based on proximity?

I cannot stand the argument that they are here because we need them. I am willing to pay a little more for goods and services to let them go home to their respective countries... until we get our own house in order.

There are studies that show illegals are a drain to the economy, not contributors.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/issues/economic_costs.html
...and many more

I think the things we have seen in the last couple months in Texas: Irving, Farmers Branch and now Carrollton are the beginning of a true backlash of people fed up with having illegals taking their jobs, benefits, taxes, health care, education, social security numbers and on and on...

[VRod RS]

Ok, so we have 4.5% unemployment. That's a nationwide number... it varies from place to place. And since this does not take into account those unemployed for > 6 months it is higher.



Seriously.. You need to research how unemployment figures are calculated. This > 6 months is total BS.. They don't look at how long you are un-employed, just if you are looking for employment. It is a survey they do each month.. Check out the BLS web site if you want to know more, but don't state something before you research it. BTW, Texas unemployment for October 20th was 4.3%



The argument goes; illegals take the jobs Americans do not or will not take.

First, this is completly wrong. Illegal workers have effectively destroyed the living wage associated with construction, sanitation, food preparation etc... They have "stolen" the entry level jobs that high-schoolers and young people traditionally held.

Secondly, the unavailability of labor can lead to inventions like combines, cotton gin, CNC machining centers. With cheap labor, why invest in R&D that leads to better/faster/cheaper/safer solutions?


This is wrong as well.. We have had workers in our country from Mexico and other countries for many years. We went through wars with them in our country and we have gone through prosperous times and hard times. They have been a relative constant for many years actually. The real issue has been the export of US jobs. That has been changing and picking up for many years and has continued to grow. Good paying middle income jobs have moved across the boarder, and over seas. Look at the statistics of where jobs go when companies close down. Also, when companies start up new projects, look where the jobs are at..


Third, Does this mean that people who illegally come into the US should get priority on these jobs? Why is Mexico the "sole" benefactor? Is this strictly based on proximity?


Not sure how you figure they get priority. If it is because they come at a cheaper cost, then when was the last time you know of someone that was an American citizen in Texas that applied for a construction job, landscaping job, etc.. that got turned down in favor of an illegal? I know for a fact, that many crews turn to hiring illegals because they can't find workers any other way.



I cannot stand the argument that they are here because we need them. I am willing to pay a little more for goods and services to let them go home to their respective countries... until we get our own house in order.


I will restate the argument I made before.. There are 12 million illegal workers here, there are only 6 million out of work Americans.. IF these out of work Americans where willing to fill each of the jobs vacated by the illegal workers, you still have a 6 million worker shortage. Of course, that is a HUGE IF since most Americans believe they are above this kind of work or have become used to a different lifestyle.

You cannot simply remove the illegals from the workforce. They have been here for a long time and they are built into the ecconomy. To say that they hold back innovation is just stupid as there have been many innovations in the industries they work in, but there is still work that must be done by somebody and not a machine. Even if everything could be automated, that can't happen overnight and are you willing to pay the higher prices and have lower quality crops? I'm not sure most Americans know what it would be like to not be able to buy certain products or have to pay 2-3 times more for them overnight.


There are studies that show illegals are a drain to the economy, not contributors.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/issues/economic_costs.html
...and many more


If these figures are to be belived, you really should compare the numbers to the costs of drug abuse, the Iraq war, higher oil prices, and shipping jobs over seas.. The few billion dollars that the illegals cost to be here is nothing compared to the money spent to keep them out.


I think the things we have seen in the last couple months in Texas: Irving, Farmers Branch and now Carrollton are the beginning of a true backlash of people fed up with having illegals taking their jobs, benefits, taxes, health care, education, social security numbers and on and on...


I disagree and believe that the events over the last year or so in Texas have been spurred on more by politicians trying to deflect the attention from the real issues and blame it on a problem that is really not as big of a problem as they let onto.

We didn't hear much about this until Mr. Bush decided to make an issue out of it and a couple of states decided to follow along. It is amazing how people decide, "Yea, this is a real issue" when a politician brings it up.

I agree that illegal workers should not be allowed, but I also believe there should be an easier way for them to be leagal. I believe they shoudl be given the same respect that Canadians are given when they want to come here. However, I don't believe they are the cause of our problems and the amount of pure hatred has gotten out of hand.

How much better would this country be if we spent the same effort on TRUE alternative engergy methods? Why are the oil companies not being taxed heavily on their profits for the purpose of funding these efforts? We have had fuel cell technology since the 60's, but nothing has come from it becasue the oil companies don't want it.

How about taxing US companies that ship jobs over seas. If you want to do business in the US, there should be a tax on labor $ sent overseas or south of the boarder to make it less appealing to have cheap labor do what we can do here so they can increase their profits.

How about we stop making stupid decisions with our military? I knew Iraq was a mistake and I was all for Afganistan. Look what this has cost us.. We have gone into debt so bad as a country to fight this war in Iraq, that the damage may be too bad for us to ever recover.

It seems with all this, the problem of illegal workers is just a small one in my mind and not one that has much of an impact in the overall scheme of things. It is the people that believe the hype of the politicians that get all worked up and forget about the real issues which is what they want you to do.

[gtrman66]

First, let me say thanks for coming over Rich! I love friendly debates on politics. I don't get angry (although a bit passionate) so please don't read that into any of my responses.

And away we go...

Seriously.. You need to research how unemployment figures are calculated. This > 6 months is total BS.. They don't look at how long you are un-employed, just if you are looking for employment. It is a survey they do each month.. Check out the BLS web site if you want to know more, but don't state something before you research it. BTW, Texas unemployment for October 20th was 4.3%

http://www.theshortrun.com/data/Labor/unemployment/unemployment.html

Once someone stops looking (ie after unemployment runs out in 6 months) they are no longer reported as unemployed. Many agencies have criticized the BLS for this. Also part-time employment is counted as full employment and we should both be able to agree that is ludicrous.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf
According to BLS, the rate is 4.7% nationwide as of September 2007.


This is wrong as well.. We have had workers in our country from Mexico and other countries for many years. We went through wars with them in our country and we have gone through prosperous times and hard times. They have been a relative constant for many years actually. The real issue has been the export of US jobs. That has been changing and picking up for many years and has continued to grow. Good paying middle income jobs have moved across the boarder, and over seas. Look at the statistics of where jobs go when companies close down. Also, when companies start up new projects, look where the jobs are at..

You will not find a stronger opponent to the exporting of jobs then me. I have advocated a tariff to level the playing field since shortly after college graduation. I am willing to pay more for US goods. It's one of the reasons all 3 of my vehicles (a Ford and 2 Harleys) are built in the US. I will not buy a car built by a non-US company, even if the factory is located in the US.

Call it protectionist, but I believe in putting my country first. In all my travelling, every country feels the same about their country, but only the US is considered "evil" for doing so.

Not sure how you figure they get priority. If it is because they come at a cheaper cost, then when was the last time you know of someone that was an American citizen in Texas that applied for a construction job, landscaping job, etc.. that got turned down in favor of an illegal? I know for a fact, that many crews turn to hiring illegals because they can't find workers any other way.

Channel 4 (myfoxdfw.com) here in Dallas did a story recently that showed that whites and blacks at day-labor camps were chased off and/or not hired. Preferential treatment was given to hispanics by hispanics. It was not based on first-come, first-serve.


A construction job in the 80's when I was in college in a rural community was paying about $20 per hour plus benefits (union). The average in DFW is $10 an hour under the table, no benefits and no taxes paid by anyone. That is detrimental to the economy as a whole and we do pay for it eventually.

And what I meant originally by preferential treatment... is people from other countries are sent packing immediately upon capture. Whereas, Mexican citizens are given court dates they never show for. Look at what this country witnessed to send home Elian Gonzales to Cuba versus the lazy approach to returning Mexican citizens.


I will restate the argument I made before.. There are 12 million illegal workers here, there are only 6 million out of work Americans.. IF these out of work Americans where willing to fill each of the jobs vacated by the illegal workers, you still have a 6 million worker shortage. Of course, that is a HUGE IF since most Americans believe they are above this kind of work or have become used to a different lifestyle.

If the US eneded all federal assistance tomorrow... we would have a surplus of workers. The 6 million is a bogus number. The number of people placed on SSI and disability, collecting checks for non-existent problems, and draining the economy is unfathomable. To say all these people are incapable of sweeping, filing, bookeeping, cooking, driving, etc... is an insult. We have created an entire subculture of people who think so little of themselves that they feed off the national table rather than find a way to provide for themselves.

You cannot simply remove the illegals from the workforce. They have been here for a long time and they are built into the ecconomy. To say that they hold back innovation is just stupid as there have been many innovations in the industries they work in, but there is still work that must be done by somebody and not a machine. Even if everything could be automated, that can't happen overnight and are you willing to pay the higher prices and have lower quality crops? I'm not sure most Americans know what it would be like to not be able to buy certain products or have to pay 2-3 times more for them overnight.

But your argument is equally stupid. First, it can't happen overnight. But it can start tomorrow. There are people thet have been "waiting in line" LEGALLY for years. Let them come in, do the job, pay the taxes and be counted. Illegals are a $60 billion drain to the economy.


If these figures are to be belived, you really should compare the numbers to the costs of drug abuse, the Iraq war, higher oil prices, and shipping jobs over seas.. The few billion dollars that the illegals cost to be here is nothing compared to the money spent to keep them out.

The 600 mile TX fence was approved by congress and not an inch has been constructed. It's not that expensive. The one built by CA has had a dramatic effect on the reduction in crossings, drug traffic and crime.

Drug abuse, Iraq, Oil prices... all seperate arguments to be tackled seperately.


I disagree and believe that the events over the last year or so in Texas have been spurred on more by politicians trying to deflect the attention from the real issues and blame it on a problem that is really not as big of a problem as they let onto.

Politicians have been avoiding this like the plague. It was the Minutemen Militia, the march by illegals in our streets, the raising of the Mexican flag over a US post Office and insane groups like LULAC and La Raza that caused the politicians to listen to the people who are fed up. It's the refusal of illegals to adopt the US culture. It's the STEALING of US identies resulting in ruined credit. It's the in-your-face we're here and we're taking over attitude that has ordinary citizens saying "enough is enough"

We didn't hear much about this until Mr. Bush decided to make an issue out of it and a couple of states decided to follow along. It is amazing how people decide, "Yea, this is a real issue" when a politician brings it up.

Bush has been their ally. He is against the fence. He wants an amnesty package (no matter how many times he says it is not amnesty). He has been their biggest supporter. It's one of the many things I hold against his presidency.
.

[gtrman66]

I agree that illegal workers should not be allowed, but I also believe there should be an easier way for them to be leagal. I believe they shoudl be given the same respect that Canadians are given when they want to come here. However, I don't believe they are the cause of our problems and the amount of pure hatred has gotten out of hand.

C'mon Rich, backpedaling? You just spent 500 words saying why the SHOULD be here. I think the process is fine, it just needs enforcement.

When was the last time you saw Canadians demanding our ballots be in French? Do you see angry people marching with the Canadian flag raised high chanting "Yes, we can"? Are the Canadians crossing the border by the millions? Do we have 25% of their population?

I personally only know one Canadian in the US and he has a master's degree and is a hospital administrator. He's a great guy. Even a Harley rider too. But I think that job should belong to a US citizen unless there is no one qualified or available to take it.

I know a South African who was managing a department and in my opinion was taking work from a qualified American citizen. I do not think that is right.


How much better would this country be if we spent the same effort on TRUE alternative engergy methods? Why are the oil companies not being taxed heavily on their profits for the purpose of funding these efforts? We have had fuel cell technology since the 60's, but nothing has come from it becasue the oil companies don't want it.

But yet when they wanted to build a "wind farm" of the coast of Martha's Vineyard it was politicians who blocked it. I subscribe to several technical magazines and fuel cell technology is coming, but it is not something that magically appears. You cannot put a timeframe on discovery, it's an unknown. We have a lot of oil in the Gulf and ANWAR but it's the politics of environmentalists (who have no understanding of the environment) that block exploration and retrieval.

How about taxing US companies that ship jobs over seas. If you want to do business in the US, there should be a tax on labor $ sent overseas or south of the boarder to make it less appealing to have cheap labor do what we can do here so they can increase their profits.

I agree 100%.

How about we stop making stupid decisions with our military? I knew Iraq was a mistake and I was all for Afganistan. Look what this has cost us.. We have gone into debt so bad as a country to fight this war in Iraq, that the damage may be too bad for us to ever recover.

Totally unrelated to immigration.

It seems with all this, the problem of illegal workers is just a small one in my mind and not one that has much of an impact in the overall scheme of things. It is the people that believe the hype of the politicians that get all worked up and forget about the real issues which is what they want you to do.

I disagree. Illegal immigration is a very real issue. Only a handful of politicians are willing to discuss it without waffling on every viewpoint. I heard Sen. Hutchinson yesterday and without committing to anything she spoke for 20 minutes. It was assinine. She should be recalled immediately for not addressing an important issue.

Congressmen Duncan Hunter (R-CA) seems to be the ONLY candidate willing to put this issue on the forefront. Polls show that this IS an important issue to the voters. It's not getting better, only worse as time drags on. It seems that untiul the federal govt. gets it's head out of its posterior, local govt's like Farmers Branch, Irving and Carrollton (as well as other townns out of state) are going to fight the good fight on their own.

There's a reason it's called Illegal Imimigration. They have broken our laws. The only ones being sent back are those "caught" breaking more laws. It's becoming an issue that will cause more flare ups if not addressed to the satisfaction of the American workers

[Irréductible]

Cool thread guys... very informative

I can see why this such a hot debate when people seem to work with a such wide assortement of facts and/or preconceptions on the subject.

From a foreigners point of view, it seems that the "illegal" work force is pretty much embeded in your economy and it seems very unrealistic to imagine that you could remove such keystone of the economy.

I also feel that there is bit of hypocrisy going on when people say that they want the "illegals" out and then proceed straight to Walmart to buy the cheapest items they can find. When they do this, not only do they condone the use of illegals, but they encourage that system...

My understandng is that if you want them out, you will have to be ready for some major shock when you walk into a store.

I also do not believe that it so bad for the economy because these illegals spend most pof their money on US soil anyhow... So most of their wages remain in the system and end up in US citizens pockets sooner or later. I mean, how much money can you hope to put aside working for 3-4$ an hour... Even if you are not paying taxes.

Oversimplistic comment.. yes I know

[gtrman66]

Cool thread guys... very informative

I can see why this such a hot debate when people seem to work with a such wide assortement of facts and/or preconceptions on the subject.

Yeah, it is cool to be able to discuss this stuff.

From a foreigners point of view, it seems that the "illegal" work force is pretty much embeded in your economy and it seems very unrealistic to imagine that you could remove such keystone of the economy.

I also feel that there is bit of hypocrisy going on when people say that they want the "illegals" out and then proceed straight to Walmart to buy the cheapest items they can find. When they do this, not only do they condone the use of illegals, but they encourage that system...

First off, illegal aliens and Wal-Mart are fairly seperate issues. Wal-Mart's outsourcing to the orient is a disgrace and in the long term hurts the US economy. The only association with illegal aliens that Wal-Mart (so far) has been the use of subcontractors hiring illegal aliens to clean after hours. The gripe there is with the subcontractors, not Wal-Mart.

My understandng is that if you want them out, you will have to be ready for some major shock when you walk into a store.

I'm ready for the shock. I heard that if we went to war with Iraq, the cost of gas would stay reasonable... politicians are lying when their lips are moving.

I also do not believe that it so bad for the economy because these illegals spend most pof their money on US soil anyhow... So most of their wages remain in the system and end up in US citizens pockets sooner or later. I mean, how much money can you hope to put aside working for 3-4$ an hour... Even if you are not paying taxes.

They TAKE $60 billion a year. That's NET, not gross. They are a drain to the economy. Sending them home is by far cheaper. Let the ones who have been waiting patiently and paying for their documents legally come in and do the work.

Oversimplistic comment.. yes I know

Not really... it's what the media keeps feeding and those who don't check, keep buying into.

I like the sparing with Rich, because he does look into it, but his sources disagree with mine apparently. Hopefully, I'll win him with logic over emotion :D

[gtrman66]

Gee I miss this thread. Notice how both candidates were for insta-citizens and this issue got buried?

How long until all the illegals are made legal under BO? I think it will be within the first year.

[MYCAR47562]

i think this issue is past party lines i believe that everybody has there own opinion on it so i dunno if it will or wont but i guess well see right

[cajun]

Well you may be right Roy, i see Bo had a sit down with the Pres. of Mexico yesterday.

[MYCAR47562]

United States Of Meximerica

[gtrman66]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479906,00.html

Military Report: Mexico, Pakistan at Risk of 'Rapid and Sudden Collapse'

The report says a collapse in Mexico seems less likely, but noted that the government infrastructure is "under sustained assault and pressure" from drug cartels and gangs. A collapse within the United States' southern neighbor would also "demand an American response based on the serious implications for homeland security alone."

Obama met earlier this week with Mexican President Felipe Calderon.

Joint Forces spokeswoman Kathleen Jabs told FOXNews.com the purpose of the assessment is not necessarily to predict future crises with 100 percent certainty, but to start a dialogue among world leaders by "looking at the trends."


Gonna be real interesting.

[MYCAR47562]

So Meximerica Might Not Be That Far Off

[gtrman66]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amero

[MYCAR47562]

Amero Huh In Our Rough Economic Times Im Not Sure How That Would Effect Us. How Would They Work Debt's Into The New Currency?

[cajun]

Gtrman, thats why i was asking you about the Trans texas corridor the other day, the group that calls itsself TURF, Texans United for Reform and Freedom said it's not dead, there lettin it lay quiet for a while so everyone forgets about it. I also wonder if and when the Dollar is so devalued and worthless they won't call for the Amero?

[gtrman66]

The guy who was really pushing the TTC died last fall and it has been eerily quiet. I was hoping it died a legislative death. The outcry from the citizens was very loud against it. Especially when it was made known the entire road would be designed, constructed, maintained (and all profits taken by) a company out of Spain.

[nelson]

Stupid analogy time!

ABC is the most prosperous company in the world.
Employees from all over the world strut in, knowing they'll be hired.
After all, ABC Company can afford it.

In order for everyone at ABC to maintain the same level of prosperity, ABC has to expand... by finding new business. So it does.

There are limits to expansion.
Eventually, ABC can no longer expand at a pace sufficient to keep up with all the new employees and maintain the same level of prosperity.
From this point on, the prosperity of every employee at ABC will decrease with each new hire.

The question: what level of prosperity is now acceptable?
The answer: acceptable to whom?

Company ABC is of course the USA. And it's an oversimplified analogy. But when we focus on details sometimes we forget what is really happening.

Many people want to protect the prosperity the USA has achieved. They focus on economic limits and point at a decline.
Most new immigrants don't see any problem - simply by arriving, they are more prosperous individually. Everyone else's prosperity could decrease significantly, and these new folks will still see a raise.
Others think we're well within our limits. They focus on the details, look for mismanagement, and think we can continue to accommodate many more people.

It gets more complicated, especially politically - but that is the essence of it.

I fall on the side of protecting the prosperity we've achieved. In my view, there are economic limits, and we have reached them. I think we should limit the number of people we accommodate, since more people will now decrease overall prosperity, doing more harm than good. I think the USA does the most good in the world by being the strongest it can possibly be.

[scol]

This is my take, my grand parents came over from Italy both sides they had to come in through proper channels, do the illegals think they're better than my grand parents? They had to learn English if you will,- American. you know what it didn't kill them, they also sent they're sons off to fight in a war against their native land.