Bailout Automakers?

[gtrman66]

I am a capitalist.

As much as I would hate to lose a GM, Ford or Chrysler, isn't time to let the free market decide which, if any survive?

Look at AIG - they spent $400 Million on a party in Phoenix last weekend on our tax dollars.

Are we not rewarding bad behavior? It's like giving an alcoholic $200 cash to pay the rent. The rent won't be paid and the alcoholic will come back for more money in a very short period of time.

If I was a small business owner, I would be expected to "fix" my business or go under, not receive a handout from the tax payers. So why does the federal gov't do so much for the "big business"? Lobbyists? Payback? Unions? Fear of the image of the jobs lost?

If I were BO, the first thing I would do is retract the $700 billion bailout (actually $1 trillion now) and start the end of gov't subsidies of all businesses. Tax breaks for R&D and capital investment is fine, but handing businesses a check is flat wrong.

[MYCAR47562]

whew ive been trying to get on to respond to this for about a hour.

i have an idea that i think would help the automakers without giving them any money. what the goverment does is offer a tax break to any individual who buys a car from one of the struggling companys. also offer a bigger tax break to company's who buy there fleets from them.

that wouldnt do it they would also have to lower or get rid of the avalorium tax for at least the first 2 years. i believe if the goverment keeps there hands out of gm's pockets there vechiles would be 5-10 thousand dollars cheaper. what do yall think

[gtrman66]

Does the fed get any money from the sale of a new car? I know you pay a state sales tax.

They have had tax breaks for "eco" cars for a whaile and no one wants them.

Detroit needs to buckle down and solve this without the gov't. I would support a tariff on imports sauch as used to help HD get back on otheir feet. The companies need to get spending back within their means.

[MYCAR47562]

oh deffinatly but there is a way to help the automaker without using any money its by not taxeing new cars spent or allowing a certain percentage of it to be written off to say help the economy. i understand not wanting to help them but this would cost us money so i dont see how my idea could hurt us to try. by not chargeing taxes on the cars it might put that new car within reach of a lot of people who didnt think it was

[gtrman66]

So far, the only "new" vehicle I ever purchased was the V-Rod. When the MSRP is $17k and I got it for $11k... well I didn't think that was a losing proposition (unless I try to sell it now... yikes).

The trouble I see with drumming up new car sales is it seems to bring in more problems. People see the lower % rate and buy more than they can afford. They tend to trade in vehicles they still owe on, thus borrowing even more.

How many can pay cash for a new vehicle? If we eliminate taxes on a new car, are we not just moving the problem?

I'm not fighting with you, just wondering out loud.

[MYCAR47562]

well yea you do make a good point but dont you think that after all this that we wouldnt make the same mistake twice?

[gtrman66]

Oh, we make the same mistakes over, and over and over.... that's why the same 2 parties have been in power so long.

I'm in debt up to my neck. Buying the V-Rod 2 years ago was a mistake. My debts are 1/3 what they were 10 years ago, but I determined to pay for my mistakes rather than take the easy way out (bankruptcy 10 years ago was a cakewalk).

Helping out people (or companies) without strings attached or a cost associated with it, yields poor results. Look at the percentage of lottery winners that lose it all in a year or two. If it doesn't "cost" you anything, it won't be worth anything to you.

The bailouts are exactly that. No one is demanding the company change their leadership, procedures, processes, spending...

[MYCAR47562]

Yea I Know But I Dunno Im Trying To Find A Way To Help The Automakers Out With Out Hurting Us. Because Due To Labor Union Chevy Will Fold If We Dont Do Something

[gtrman66]

Then it is the fault of GM and the labor unions, not the tax payers. I am in management, so I do not sympathize with Union members. I work in a very non-union state, Texas (although the GM plant in Arlington is union).

The union, in this case, has done a disservice to it's membership by not negotiating with GM to improve the situation. When there are people that make $37 an hour to put on lug nuts all day... there is something wrong with the picture.

[MYCAR47562]

I Agree But Without Chevy We Dont Have A Whole Lot Of True American Company's Left

[gtrman66]

Don't be fooled. There are numerous American companies around. New ones spring up every day and old ones slip away unnoticed.

I worked for
Boeing... plant closed
Avodale Shipyards... bought out
Pellerin Milnor... still going strong
Sunbeam... all products are made overseas, plants closed
Intercraft... bankrupt, import only now
Globe... plant closed, moved production to Portugal
Trico... plant on skeleton crew... close is imminent, mostly imports
Dallas Woodcraft/Home Interiors... bankrupt, plants closed

My current employer is doing very well (medical).

If it's not profitable, change it or close it, but don't ask for handouts that spread the pain and delay the inevitable.

[The G]

Then it is the fault of GM and the labor unions, not the tax payers. I am in management, so I do not sympathize with Union members. I work in a very non-union state, Texas (although the GM plant in Arlington is union).

The union, in this case, has done a disservice to it's membership by not negotiating with GM to improve the situation. When there are people that make $37 an hour to put on lug nuts all day... there is something wrong with the picture.
Show me where employees get paid $37.00 for installing lug nuts.

Thats just BS

[gtrman66]

I need to dig it up, but do you get the Parade magazine in the Sunday paper? Once a year they have salary comparisons and that $37 lug nut installer was one of them.

[MYCAR47562]

wow and they pay 9 dollars an hour to the guys who do it in shops lol

[The G]

If George is going to spend to billions to bail out the banking industry I don't see why we shouldn't help out the auto boys too.

[gtrman66]

Shouldn't have bailed out the banks either.

I think Paulson and Bernake should be arrested for crimes against the taxpayers.

[MYCAR47562]

I Agree

[The G]

Shouldn't have bailed out the banks either.

I think Paulson and Bernake should be arrested for crimes against the taxpayers.No fight here.

[vrodderD]

I say let them all go broke. If I ran a small business that poorly, do you think they would come bail me out? Hell no..

[Oriondk]

I'm really torn on this issue. The American brand car makers have been going down for years. Not including trucks, is their an American car that even comes close to comparing with what Toyota and Honda put out? None that I know of. The Big 3 have had years to get this figured out. Someone on another forum suggested that the Big 3 should purchase brand new Hondas and Toyotas every year and have their engineers tear them apart and figure out why they are so good. But between poor management, poor engineering and overinflated union demands they have reached a real crossroads now and need to have a major overhaul if they're going to survive. I can't believe they didn't see this coming. Shortsighted.
Now, what do we as a country do about it? Let them fall or prop them up? Propping them just goes against all the rules of capitalism ad free enterprise. What about the small businesses that go under everyday? Where's their bailout? Let them fall and you're looking at something like 800,000 good paying jobs adding to our already struggling economy. Not to mention the other 1.7 million jobs in support industries. What kind of ripple effect will that have on an economy in the dumps? We're talking full blown depression here, folks.
On an ancillary note, what happens to NASCAR? :eek:

[MYCAR47562]

Really That Wouldnt Be A Ripple Effect That Would Be A Damn Bowling Ball Being Droped In The Toliet If The Big 3 Fall

[gtrman66]

The big 3 need to take a hard look and make some tough decisions to stay in business. A bailout only prolongs the misery and places our children in gov't debt forever.

Should the gov't have propped up the milk man and ice delivery industries after the invention of refrigeration? Those people had to move on and find new jobs. Yes, it will be brutal.

Bailing out the auto industry is just like the guy who borrows from one credit card to pay off the other in the hopes of a future raise. What it comes down to, is changes have to be made, tough choices, in order to change the current spending habits and regain control of the economy.

[MYCAR47562]

i guess short of socializing the auto industry we dont have much of a choice

[Oriondk]

The big 3 need to take a hard look and make some tough decisions to stay in business. A bailout only prolongs the misery and places our children in gov't debt forever.

Should the gov't have propped up the milk man and ice delivery industries after the invention of refrigeration? Those people had to move on and find new jobs. Yes, it will be brutal.
Bailing out the auto industry is just like the guy who borrows from one credit card to pay off the other in the hopes of a future raise. What it comes down to, is changes have to be made, tough choices, in order to change the current spending habits and regain control of the economy.

And the auto industry destroyed the buggy industry. No one tried to bailout the buggy makers.:p

[MYCAR47562]

the automotive industry is differnt than any of those other industry's if the big 3 fall that will put about 1 million people out of jobs that 1 in every 360 people would loose there jobs that i believe is to large of a shock for our ailing economy something has to happen but i dont believe the goverment should do it

[gtrman66]

Interesting take from "Managing Automation" magazine.

"So the idea that a bankruptcy for GM might actually be a better alternative to a bailout might indeed make some sense. A bankruptcy filing would enable GM to reorganize under legal protection, requiring much-needed and long-overdue changes in the company and its relationships with suppliers, employees, and retirees."

[vrodderD]

'The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'

- Ronald Reagan