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sisyphus
11-22-2008, 11:48 AM
Memorandum

To: Gun Nuts of America

From: Liberal Establishment

Date: 11/22/08

RE: Your Guns


This may come as a surprise to many of you gun enthusiasts out there, but in the list of things us liberals want to get done in the next four to eight years, messing with anyone's guns is pretty far down. In fact, unless you are a convicted felon (and thereby legally ineligible to own firearms) - I don't even think guns are on our list at all.

I know this is at odds with what you hear from the folks from the NRA, or Hannity, or Limbaugh, or NewsMax, or wherever it is you get your news these days. But trust me, we really don't care that much about guns.

Why is this? Well, to start with, most of us Liberals are pretty pragmatic folks. We care about what works - and what doesn't. We like scientific studies, and reasoned analysis to help us make our decisions. And, believe it or not, the Constitution (and all 27 of its Amendments, not just #2) is pretty important to us too.

We've looked at the studies about gun ownership, and you know what? There just doesn't seem to be a strong correlation between guns and crime. True: Private ownership of guns doesn't seem to increase crime, including murder. But also true: private ownership (even concealed carry) doesn't seem to reduce it either. What does reduce crime? More cops on the street, and better economic conditions. So, given that we can only do so much, we're gonna focus on making us stronger economically. If you think that buying a handgun, or a shotgun, or a rifle, is going to make you safer in your home: You're free to believe that. We could point to statistics that say the opposite. But we won't.

The last couple of elections have been generally pretty good for us Liberals. Across most of the country we've increased the number of candidates we've had elected. And most of those new legislators want to get re-elected. The last thing those newly elected Liberal senators or Congressmen want to do is stir up a lot of controversy voting for something that a) isn't going to make much difference and b) is going to piss off a lot of voters. We might, possibly, do something to make it harder for convicted felons to buy guns (the gun show loophole) - but even that's a stretch.

I'm sure as you're reading this, some of you are going to say "Well back in xxx or so Barack HUSSEIN Obama put xxx on some form" or said something else in some interview. Well guess what: It just doesn't mean anything. His priorities as President of the USA are going to be a heck of a lot different to those he had when he represented a crime-ridden district on the south side of Chicago. If you want to keep on obsessing about it, and bringing it up, and rambling on endlessly - there's nothing anyone can do to stop you. You are free to believe whatever you want. But that doesn't make it true.

In case you missed it, right now our country has some pretty big challenges ahead of it. Our banking system almost collapsed. Our car industry is pretty close to falling apart. Unemployment is way up. We're getting out of Iraq - and more into Afghanistan. We need to deal with Iran and China and Russia and Cuba and Venezuela. We need to come up with an energy policy. Thirty million of our citizens don't have health insurance. And Joe Sixpack owning a gun isn't going to help us with any of those. If you can tell us a good way we can shoot our way out of a recession or into better health care - go ahead, we're all ears. But in the meantime, we're going to work to try and fix those things I've just mentioned. Taking away someone's legal right to own guns frankly isn't even on our radar.

If you want to be part of the discussion about fixing some of those big problems I just mentioned (the economy, energy, healthcare, etc. etc.) we'll welcome your input. But if all you want to do is rant about some secret (and factually nonexistent) plan to take away guns, then we just aren't interested.

cajun
11-22-2008, 05:14 PM
Could you please explain the Gun show loophole to me, i've heard libs use this over and over and i don't know what it is. I have bought several handguns from gun shows and i don't know anything about this loophole.

sisyphus
11-22-2008, 06:12 PM
When you buy a gun from a retail store dealer, they check that the person buying the gun does not have a felony conviction. Usually this involves the National Instant Criminal Background Check System - which is done over the phone, or via computer, etc.

If you, as an individual, sell a gun privately, it is assumed that you know the person to whom you are selling, and presumably wouldn't sell a gun to someone with a felony conviction.

The concern some people have have is that Gun Shows, where there may be hundreds or even thousands of individuals buying and selling guns, presents an opportunity for a person ineligible to buy a firearm may do so without the person selling it to know his background.

In reality, very few illegally-purchased guns are bought at gun shows. (Less than 2% is one figure I have read.) Most illegally bought guns are purchased from friends and family members. However, it is believed that requiring purchasers at gun shows to go through some form of NICS checking is technologically possible without placing too great a burden on either the buyer or seller, and that it would keep at least some guns out of the hands of criminals.

cajun
11-22-2008, 06:26 PM
I don't know where your from but in Fla it don't work like that. If i want to sell a gun i run an ad in the paper and who ever shows up at my front door with the cash gets the gun. There are no assumptions.And buying a gun at a gun show is no different that buying at the local gun shop. They do the instant checks at the gun shows.

vrodderD
11-23-2008, 08:47 PM
Wow! Michael Moore joined the forum. Who'd a thunk it?

vrodderD
11-23-2008, 10:42 PM
The official position
The campaign website has no mention of gun control on any of its pages.

However, the downloadable PDF file of the Obama plan for rural America has the following to say:

Barack Obama and Joe Biden deeply respect America's sportsmen and are committed to protecting their rights. Tens of millions of Americans hunt and fish. Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe that we can protect the rights of hunters and other lawful gun owners while still working to reduce gun violence and make sure that guns do not fall into the hands of criminals or the mentally ill.


The quotes
In an Illinois Senate Debate on Oct 21, 2004:
I think it is a scandal that this president did not authorize a renewal of the assault weapons ban.


In The Audacity of Hope (p215)
I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manufacturer's lobby.

In 2007 NAACP Presidential Primary Forum on Jul 12, 2007
We've got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren't loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they're not made in our communities.

As quoted in From Promise to Power, by David Mendell (p.250-251)
I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry. This was a narrow exception in an exceptional circumstance where a retired police officer might find himself vulnerable as a consequence of the work he has previously done--and had been trained extensively in the proper use of firearms.


The legislation
2000 - Cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month
2004 - Voted Yes to let retired police officers carry concealed handguns
2005 - Voted No on Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act

MYCAR47562
11-24-2008, 08:35 AM
you think that buying a handgun, or a shotgun, or a rifle, is going to make you safer in your home: You're free to believe that. We could point to statistics that say the opposite. But we won't.


i could point to countless study's where just brandishing a weapon scares off the perp

sisyphus
11-24-2008, 10:50 AM
Obviously you think that owning guns is the answer to everything.

If you've lost your job, and don't have health insurance, or your house gets reposessed, then I really hope you find your guns useful to you.

I've tried to point out that nobody in Government has any plans to take any one's guns away from them. Don't believe me - fine. Keep bellyaching and speculating all you want. But I'm done debating you on this issue. Its boring.

MYCAR47562
11-24-2008, 11:01 AM
You Really Are Blinded By You Thirst For A Messiah

sisyphus
11-24-2008, 11:11 AM
Even more boring.

MYCAR47562
11-24-2008, 11:15 AM
I Hope You Still Think That Way In 4 Years