Australia bans Islam books

[nelson]

Islamic books banned for inciting terror
Tuesday Jul 11 13:40 AEST
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=71155&print=true

Two Islamic books have been banned after the Classification Review Board found they incited terrorism.

The books, Defence of the Muslim Lands, and Join the Caravan, have been refused classification and can no longer be sold within Australia or imported into the country.

Last year, an Islamic book store at Lakemba, in Sydney's west, was accused of selling the now-banned books.

Federal Attorney-General Philip Ruddock sought the review last month after the classification board found the books and a film did not breach Australian law, and federal police could find no grounds to prosecute the booksellers.

Six other Islamic books and a film were reviewed and cleared for sale.

The review board said in a statement that Defence of the Muslim Lands "promotes and incites in matters of crime, specifically terrorism acts, including the plan, action and execution of martyrdom operations".

"The book is specific and explicit in its support for and encouragement of suicide bombing, including details for undertaking such crimes," the board said.

The second book, Join the Caravan, also "has the objective purpose of promoting and inciting acts of terrorism against disbelievers and is a real and genuine call to specific action by Muslims to fight for Allah and engage in acts of violence".

Board convenor Maureen Shelley said the board had sought advice from the Mufti of Australia, Sheik Taj Aldin Alhilali, and the NSW Council for Civil Liberties in making its decision.

It also considered how current anti-terrorism laws applied.

Mr Ruddock said it was now up to state governments to follow through on the matter.

"I would urge state and territory attorneys-general and police to ensure that they enforce the laws available to them and keep offensive material of this nature off streets," Mr Ruddock said.

He is also seeking the support of state attorneys-general at a meeting later this month on whether changes to censorship laws are needed.

Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed Ali said the ban was not justified.

"We understand that the literature is demonstrably unsavoury but that's different from saying that it necessarily causes a threat," he told ABC Radio.


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[Teiwaz]

No doubt the censorship issue will arise. I have not read the books, and Ruddock is known for a heavy hand, but for mine, if the books do what the article says, then they should not be cleared for sale. Whether they can be accessed online is of course a consideration, and whether this will just raise awareness of them and therefore increase their popularity among the extremist groups that are the biggest threat in the forst place is alo a danger. But what can you do? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I would rather be damned taking action that is right and reasonable than sitting with my thumb up my arse hoping for the best.

["shazbat"]

The fact that they are banned means they have already been in circulation and their message is implanted to spead like the gnarly vine it is.
Like closing the proverbial barn door after the cow has escaped.
The trick is how do you combat the message or deal with that type of extremist propoganda when the seeds have been sown in fertile soil.

[The_Man]

The trick is how do you combat the message or deal with that type of extremist propoganda when the seeds have been sown in fertile soil.
The answer simply put is to tell the truth about these radical groups. Call a spade a spade and to hell with PC worries of offending. People have such short memories; there was a time not too long ago that no one would have questioned the Holocaust. A few years pass and at the risk of offending someone’s ethnic background the truth seems to be forgotten and some radical group succeeds at creating doubt where there once was none. The problem is the mainstream media spends far to little time correcting these types of attacks on the truth.

[Sonrisa]

Scream! I can't believe what I'm hearing. The one thing of in this world I am absolutely sure of is - is NO CENSORSHIP. Not ever, not for any reason. Not in print, nor film or any other medium. Actually isn't that one of the first things all dictators do? Hitler, Musolini, Castro, ad nauseum. And to what lengths are they going to carry this, and who is going to decide when the censorship has gone far enough. If this was as far as it went I could at least understand why someone would consider it, but it never does.

Those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it, and repeat it and repeat it. Fight terrorists, by all means, and if need be pull out ALL the stops, but by the time the "big daddy" folks get through we won't have any freedom to worry about preserving.

I happen to be reading a book on "Understanding Islam" written back in 1986 by an American......haven't finished it, but nothing sinister YET. If there was, I have a brain. I would recognize crap. It would never make me turn against my own people. There are things all over the internet on how to make bombs, and do every kind of sick thing you can imagine. Who is going to supervise all this? We have always had hate mongers and horrible people. But to censor a book. Jeez, why not just go back to burning witches at the stake? Can't be too careful, right.

As for the holocaust.....the people that I have met who subscribe to the theory that it never happened, or it wasn't very many -- (I actually broke up an engagement over that one) , believe it because they want to and they hate Jews. It's handy and it also absolves them from feeling sorry for the 12 million people who were murdered. Also the gypsies and homosexuals and some just folks just for the sheer joy of it that were murdered horribly. Yes, Hitler was not too fond of a lot artists and writers either.

There are evil people everywhere and morons willing to follow them because basically their followers are for the most part not very bright or are downright evil. In any case they will always find an outlet for the malice and atrocities.

I've read books that have been banned in the past (Dalton Trumbo - reported to be a communist - book was Johnnie Got his Gun). It wasn't very realistic, but it made a solid point. He omitted to put in what scum a lot of people are and the fact that they will never stop trying to kill each other.

Read Abe Fortas, former supreme court justice "Concerning Dissent and Civil Disobedience" .

I may not be a very good writer, and not published yet, but I would be damned if anybody is going to tell me what I can and can't write or post on a web site (of my own). Fortunately politics is not my forte. I have read on an average 4-6 books every week for my entire life. I read everything, and I do mean everything. We have that right.

This climate of hysteria is much more worrisome to me than anything that's come up for awhile. How about figuring out ways to catch the terrorists and dispatch them post haste to their great reward whatever they perceive it to be.

You know who scares me much worse than the terrorists - some of you, and I mean that in the nicest possible way. You are so determined and just plain terrifying. I wish I didn't know.

Just in case you think I'm soft - think again. I would uphold Truman's decision to drop the bomb any time. It annoys me to hear us apologizing for that. It simply had to be done at that time. Anything else, but trampling on the civil liberties of harmless, blameless people, yes, like me and I presume like most of you - not in this lifetime while there is breath in my body. I will march, write letters, and fight tooth and nail to protect my civil liberties.

You want to deport suspect people - please help yourselves, but don't even think about messing with my rights as a US citizen. This is really OTT. Now I've got something else to have nightmares about. Great! Books are sacred to me. That is something you just don't kid around about.

Sonrisa :mad:

["shazbat"]

The answer simply put is to tell the truth about these radical groups. Call a spade a spade and to hell with PC worries of offending. People have such short memories; there was a time not too long ago that no one would have questioned the Holocaust. A few years pass and at the risk of offending someone’s ethnic background the truth seems to be forgotten and some radical group succeeds at creating doubt where there once was none. The problem is the mainstream media spends far to little time correcting these types of attacks on the truth.


First: What is the truth? (just playing Devil's advocate, now that aside)
Second: The cultural differences will not allow them to see this as anything but another discriminatory exercise.
I do call a spade a spade, but you will not get a cultural minority to believe what you tell them just because 1: you tell them it's the truth or 2: because you tell them many times.
That's just stupid. It hasn't worked here with issues related to our "cultural minorities" or anyone else for that matter.

[The_Man]

First, since to me truth means facts that are correct and provable let me revise my statement to say tell them the facts that are correct and provable. Example; When I was a child and culturally uneducated my father would begin to teach me right from wrong by showing me that doing what was right was good and had rewards and by doing what was wrong would bring consequences. After more than a few attempts to prove him wrong I finally got the point. Had my father not followed thru with the consequence stage of the lesson I would have probably continued to probe and extend his limit, but thankfully he did not and I learned early the lesson of good and evil and right and wrong.

The United States has to its credit an extremely good record with respect to how we conduct war and after the conflict is over proves it by rebuilding what was destroyed. The mainstream media does not seem to declare this nearly as often as it questions the motives of any military action the US is involved in, and if the US press does not laud this fact why should the world media.

There is a war going on and the war was not started by the US or Israel but can be successfully waged and won if the root cause of the unrest is eliminated. That root cause is the radical Islamic terrorist groups that are backed by Iran and Syria and radical regimes such as North Korea. These were correctly identified when President Bush spoke to the nation after the 9/11 attacks and dubbed the term Axis of Evil. Just after the 9/11 attacks the nation and the free world were united in a desire to stop such aggression from taking place again but as soon as the initial shock wore off the political parties jockeyed to take advantage of the situation. The war raged on in the background and The US continued to pursue those responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Many were caught or killed, Iraq was liberated and much progress has been made on the war on terror. The enemy respects none of the conventional rules of war and any efforts to find a diplomatic solution will fail because they will not abide by any such resolutions. There is only one way to deal with such an enemy and that is to crush and destroy their ability to wage such a war. Unless the free world is united in acknowledging these terrorist nations for what they are, Evil and stand resolved and united to destroy there ability to wage war the conflict will expand and suck the rest of the world into a world war. Just my 2 cents.

The right to free press to express decent I have no problem with but to monger hate and call for the outright murder of peaceful people should not be allowed or be considered as an acceptable means of discourse.

["shazbat"]

Let me first comment that your father appears to be an intelligent and responsible adult and parent.
Would that only all were so.

As for your following comments I will not disagree or nay-say any. They are all as accurate as anyone can verify.

I recently received an e-mail (wish I had saved it for print here) which listed all the things that we (the coalition) have accomplished in Iraq and it is impressive.
I also agree that I have not seen any of it covered in the media, not even the "fair and balanced" media, and that is a shame. I can not suggest a cure for that.

My earlier comment was that you can tell rational thruths to one with an irrational hatred of you till you're blue in the face and they will still not believe what you are saying.

[retread]

Scream! I can't believe what I'm hearing. The one thing of in this world I am absolutely sure of is - is NO CENSORSHIP. Not ever, not for any reason. Not in print, nor film or any other medium. Actually isn't that one of the first things all dictators do? Hitler, Musolini, Castro, ad nauseum. And to what lengths are they going to carry this, and who is going to decide when the censorship has gone far enough. If this was as far as it went I could at least understand why someone would consider it, but it never does.

Hitler, Mussolini, Castro are exceptional examples of the worst. The two books being banned are examples of a small response from a government to show certain things are unacceptable. To assume a democracy would fall victim to fascism because they control what is allowed to be sold in their country is going to an extreme.

Other examples of unacceptable behavior that might be viewed as censorship in a sense is yelling fire in a theater, threatening the President of the United States, joking about a bomb on an airplane.

Those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it, and repeat it and repeat it. Fight terrorists, by all means, and if need be pull out ALL the stops, but by the time the "big daddy" folks get through we won't have any freedom to worry about preserving.

Balance what Australia is doing against history and realize this gesture leads to nothing more than common sense being exercised by their government to state a position and mark a place in the sand that is no longer acceptable.

I happen to be reading a book on "Understanding Islam" written back in 1986 by an American......haven't finished it, but nothing sinister YET. If there was, I have a brain. I would recognize crap. It would never make me turn against my own people. There are things all over the internet on how to make bombs, and do every kind of sick thing you can imagine. Who is going to supervise all this? We have always had hate mongers and horrible people. But to censor a book. Jeez, why not just go back to burning witches at the stake? Can't be too careful, right.

The sky isn't falling.

As for the holocaust.....the people that I have met who subscribe to the theory that it never happened, or it wasn't very many -- (I actually broke up an engagement over that one) , believe it because they want to and they hate Jews. It's handy and it also absolves them from feeling sorry for the 12 million people who were murdered. Also the gypsies and homosexuals and some just folks just for the sheer joy of it that were murdered horribly. Yes, Hitler was not too fond of a lot artists and writers either.

The Hitler analogy does not fit the puzzle piece that Major's government created by banning two books.

There are evil people everywhere and morons willing to follow them because basically their followers are for the most part not very bright or are downright evil. In any case they will always find an outlet for the malice and atrocities.

So do nothing and say nothing? Or do something and say something?

I've read books that have been banned in the past (Dalton Trumbo - reported to be a communist - book was Johnnie Got his Gun). It wasn't very realistic, but it made a solid point. He omitted to put in what scum a lot of people are and the fact that they will never stop trying to kill each other.

I read Johnny Got His Gun and saw the movie in 1971. The book was published in 1939. I was never aware it was banned anywhere? Was it a high school library type banning?

Read Abe Fortas, former supreme court justice "Concerning Dissent and Civil Disobedience" .

I may not be a very good writer, and not published yet, but I would be damned if anybody is going to tell me what I can and can't write or post on a web site (of my own). Fortunately politics is not my forte. I have read on an average 4-6 books every week for my entire life. I read everything, and I do mean everything. We have that right.

Absolutely.

This climate of hysteria is much more worrisome to me than anything that's come up for awhile. How about figuring out ways to catch the terrorists and dispatch them post haste to their great reward whatever they perceive it to be.

Over reaction Sonrisa. No hysteria is being displayed by any Western government if anything there may be a lack of concern by too many politicians in power.

You know who scares me much worse than the terrorists - some of you, and I mean that in the nicest possible way. You are so determined and just plain terrifying. I wish I didn't know.

Sorry! This hyperbole is over the top. You are a writer and as such you have the luxury of crafting your sentences with a paint brush. Why choose to paint with shades of black and grey all the time?

Just in case you think I'm soft - think again. I would uphold Truman's decision to drop the bomb any time. It annoys me to hear us apologizing for that. It simply had to be done at that time. Anything else, but trampling on the civil liberties of harmless, blameless people, yes, like me and I presume like most of you - not in this lifetime while there is breath in my body. I will march, write letters, and fight tooth and nail to protect my civil liberties.

Over exaggeration on the civil liberties mantra. Name one civil liberty you've lost since 9-11 besides your right to carry a box cutter knife (and like weapons) on an airplane?

You want to deport suspect people - please help yourselves, but don't even think about messing with my rights as a US citizen. This is really OTT. Now I've got something else to have nightmares about. Great! Books are sacred to me. That is something you just don't kid around about.


Sonrisa :mad:

Stay strong, stay balanced, and don't let the weight of every issue drag you down.

[Teiwaz]

I kinda agree with retread on a lot of that Sonrisa. The whole alarmist "if you let them do this, next they'll march you into the gas ovens" warcry is irrational and illogical and lazy. It allows you to demonise any conduct you disagree with by claiming it is no different to or inevitably leads to brutal dictatorship, meglomania, the oppression of human rights and high blood pressure.

[Sonrisa]

I am not going to let any of this get me down, because I am giving all of this up completely. I am not going to engage in anything remotely political anymore. It's too complicated, too creepy and totally beyond my control. I am sick of being sick about it every day when I wake up. If I should actually stumble over something positive I can do, I certainly will.

I am in the process of changing the course of my entire life right now, am seeing an attorney on the 28th, and have a lot in motion. Life and the world will rock along just fine without me. Nothing I do, say or think will change anything.

It is totally clear to me that for the most part I am definitely in the minority. I can't stand the liberals and I can't stand the conservatives. It is making me positively dislike beyond all comprehension people that I used to like. It simply is not worth it to me. It appears on the surface that most folks would rather win an argument than genuinely take part in a solution.

After looking at all the politicians in the US at least. The only one who has my unqualified respect for the little that I do know of her is Olympia Snow of Maine.

She most likely will NEVER be elected to anything higher. She is not flashy. She does not press buttons. The Republicans don't like her because she is not "right" enough. The left don't like her because she is a Republican. It's like a world gone mad.

I absolutely hate censorship more than anything in the world. When I say hate, I mean it in the true sense of that word. Most of the people in power all over the world I don't consider competent or having enough integrity to wash my dog much less decide anything as important as what to censor or not. So this is pretty much it for me. It is unlikely I will ever vote again so that's one less "liberal" vote you have to worry about.

The toll the knowledge of how most of the people I know feel about the topics on this forum and others, is upsetting beyond belief. I really had no clue, and I mean no malice when I say this, but I sincerely wish I did not.

I have lots to do in my personal life. I have some major battles ahead and goals to achieve. This is simply too emotionally draining and counter productive for me personally.

So, my friends, no hard feelngs, and I truly mean that. I would like to go back to where we were before. I only dropped in to pick up a PM someone told me I had. I'll see you guys around the regular way with the same regard I've always had for you; nothing has changed. I really seriously can't do this. I kind of have always known that. I am not temperamentally suited for civilized debating.

So hugs all around and no hard feelings, please wish me well. My whole life is about to change forever, and I am really scared and need all the friends I've got.

Sonrisa :)

[Teiwaz]

Sonrisa,

if you have a lot on your plate and need to just concentrate on those things, then I am sure we all wish you nothing but the best. I hope you win the battles and face and overcome the challenges you refer to , whatever they are. It's hard to say "Let me know if you need any help along the way" given that this a virtual forum, and I am a fair distance away, but nontheless, if you think I can help in any way, let me know.