What's wrong with this forum?

[retread]

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Here it is 7/14 and after 44 days there are fewer than 40 members and 80 threads.

Why?

The people that love to start political discord on the vrod forums toss their cookies, leave their bile sitting out on the picnic table, and then get the thread yanked when an opposing view pisses them off.

This pattern of hit and run seems to be the tactic of the left. They misrepresent, plant seeds of untruth, and then they hide.

[Sonrisa]

If you can step back for just a moment and decompress, do you think it might just possibly be the tone of this post and all the others like it? I am sure you won't agree. Pity.

I will give you experience not theory.

I joined this forum for a couple of reasons. I like and respect Max and know his heart is always in the right place as far as I can see.

I AM very interested in learning about how other people view the world and all its goings on, particularly political, since it impacts everything else.

I am probably not as left as you think, but for the sake of argument I will be as left as you like.

Hit and run.....that's the way you describe us when you can't get a fight.

Thin-skinned .....that's the way you describe us when we do fight.

I shouldn't say "we" because the "left" seems to be a lot more diverse in opinions than the "right".

I came here looking for answers, not a fight. Truthfully, I have not found many. So, I am engaged in talking to a friend whose integrity is beyond reproach, who is not at all left, nor religious, though very spiritual. We have discussed pretty much everything. Very much a hawk, also.

FINALLY I got some insight as to why people of those opinions feel that way. We still do not agree on everything and respect each other and our positions. I have changed my mind on a couple of things, without having aspersions cast at me personally or my character or my lack of intellect.

People who have to label others in the news as men, women, black, white, or by religion have a definite bigotry in that area. I am a citizen of the US, not a woman citizen. I am a dog owner not a white dog owner, and so on.

You are right, the lefties do not want to be on this forum. They have told me so privately. There reasons are their private business and they are different.

I know in my heart the truth of all these matters lies somewhere in the middle, and this all or nothing mentality just is not getting it for me.

On a personal note, I AM afraid if we do not arm ourselves effectively and employ the correct military strategies we are in serious, serious trouble. However we got over there, we are there and is seems to be getting worse by the minute. Of course people can't predict the future. If we all could it would be a perfect world. Do I trust our govt......not by a long shot, though it is undoubtedly the best there is......I don't trust "either side". I think people start out idealistically in most cases, try to do the right thing and power and money and the status quo drags them down after awhile.

I have a very difficult time because of my ingrained personality differentiating between's someone's abilities and integrity and their outside persona.

I am absolutely terrified either way, hawk or dove, we are going to get the wrong person who will lead others like them to do the wrong thing.

I deeply resent the people on the right who say right out, that we lefties don't want the US to succeed. We want them to fail. What kind of convoluted logic is that? :eek: We live here too and will bear the results of any bad decisions. To question someone's patriotism because they don't agree with the established reigning party is I believe what the US was founded on. Questioning is not trying to overthrow.

I am not at all interested in conversing with people who want to argue just to show off how brilliant and sarcastic they can be. People who truly want to come to a real understanding and hopefully look for a solution - yes, I call my congressman or woman too, I will agree or disagree with all day long. There are some on this forum, but OMG some of you guys really have one hell of an attitude, and I will leave you to your little circle, I think you get the rest....

There is a possibility that I am too thin-skinned, but funny thing, none of my other rightist friends think so and we have had some wonderful conversations. I don't have to defend myself or my opinions any more than you do yours. We all have them. I'm looking for the commonality; I already know how to disagree and fight and believe me I am quite capable of being at least as nasty as the worst among you. I don't do that kind of thing because I respect Max too much, and I hope you know that, Max. I also respect most of the people on this forum.

The Libertarians -- the ones I know are anything but bleeding hearts; too tough for me. Read the book that started it all "Libertarianism" by John Hospers (the founder). Because one person write a govt official even though I believe, Capt. Dan, that was a joke, does not mean they represent an entire group. Libertarians in particular tend to be quite unlike each other.

You guys have a good day, :) If you don't kick me off I'll probably post again some day, but right now on a personal level my hands are full. I need all my energy for what lies ahead.

Sonrisa

[Captain Dan]

Sonrisa, its unlikely you will get booted here. And yes, the letter was a joke which has been misinterpreted by several in a discussion group (all "on the left"). It seems that thin skin seems to be going around.
Poltitical debate is seldom successful in changing anyone's mind. But debate on a forum is apparently a form of sport to some. Just hang for a bit on JoMomma at the ADVRider forum. So while many of us have convictions, we have to watch out for the 'baiters'.
I am continually amazed at the thinking of many on the left (many of my best friends lean that way) that somehow we should all "just get along". And somehow we should be responsible to help those who are less well off than we are. I guess I just don't feel that way. And truly believe that if we let them, there are many who would take everything I and my family have without a second glance. Many of those profess to be devout Christians, which makes it even scarier. So the answers are neither on the right (especially the Christianists) or the left (especially the socialists).
I'd be a libertarian, except many that I have met are really bonkers. And I am for sure not spiritual. I suspect you and I would agree on more than it appears on the surface. And I'm sorry the "lefties" you have discussed this with don't want to be here.
Understanding is the key. And free discourse. With no name calling. It can happen.

[nelson]

Hang in there. It takes time to build a highly-trafficked site, and I think we're experiencing the calm before the storm. This may last months or more. I hope not but we'll see. In the mean time we may not get much more carry-over from other forums. I am glad you all are here. Probably now is when we'll have the best discussions, before the mob mentality invades. Anyone who can dialogue on the issues without degrading or emotionalizing will have my interest.

[Sonrisa]

Sorry Nelson, I was born emotional and not likely to change at this date. I actually logged in to apologize for the overly emotional rhetoric, though the thoughts are still the same. It is not an excuse but I am now on 48 hours without sleep at all and normally I have to get 8 to 10 hours. On the upside passionate people make great warriors.

You and I will unlikely ever agree on anything in this lifetime except that you have really super bikes, and we both love bikes, and I am going to get a bike. That's pretty much it.

Dan, if you were referring to the guy on the other forum who said that all wars are caused directly or indirectly by religion, I would definitely tend to agree. All religions are included in that statement. I have always thought that as long as I can remember. Actually pretty much most of his posts I agree with and I don't know him and can't even remember his name right now. I don't think he is a "hit and run" either. He is either new or unlike this writer extremely busy.

It obviously is not everyone's thing, but being emotional, not overly emotional, is not necessarily a bad thing. The alternative is to be detached and unemotional or as I would view it "cold-blooded". They both have their place.

If we are only interested in people like us, then why even bother to debate at all. I actually invited a few people who are not "lefties" as well when we were having discussions about these topics, but centrists and "rightists, but not - trying to find a PC word here, but can't...you know, overly so" and they just believe what they believe and don't much care if anyone else agrees or not and are happy with their choices.

Dan, you did make one point that I did take to heart - about not helping people or they will take all you have. We certainly have some professional freeloaders up here, and the most irritating part is they hide behiind their children. I probably will always help out when I can, but no I do not want it forced on me, and I like to at least choose who or what charity. I have never liked the welfare system, but have never quite figured out how children with lazy or drunken or even insane parents are supposed to survive long enough to become adults if someone doesn't help them.

On the original question about why people don't come around...I can't answer that exactly, but it does not appear to be even remotely 50/50. Who in their right mind after a hard day of working wants to walk into the lions' den. Yep purple prose - very emotional...that's the way I think and that's the way it comes out....can't change that. I have spotted only one person on this forum who by any standard I would even consider centrist.

Very few liberals in government today represent me or most of the liberals I know, and none of the conservatives with the possible exception of Olympia Snow of Maine who is pretty much a centrist really.

They say when someone really annoys you, to make note of their defects that bother you the most, and you'll something of your own in there. I am taking notes for myself on things to work on as we speak!!

I think it is correct to be genuinely concerned about this war. Since it is all over the place now, it could very possibly last for many, many years. The Irish have been at it for 800 years, and the Palestinians and the Jews have been at it a very long time. Too tired to look for the other thread, but the rest of my possible lifetime is way too long to have people restricting my liberties and censoring everything. I keep hoping against hope that a third party, not yet in existence yet, materializes out of this mess. I don't see much hope for the two major parties now in the US. It will be interesting to see who else in the world will form alliances. Maybe not pretty, but certainly interesting.

Mob mentality - ttt!


Sonrisa

[The_Man]

Retread,
Traffic, Members and Post will take care of themselves with time.
Passion and content are a plenty. Stick around and I am sure that over time this will become one of the best forums for voicing opinions relating to political issues that affect us all.

["shazbat"]

Traffic
Members
Posts
Passion
Content
________________

Here it is 7/14 and after 44 days there are fewer than 40 members and 80 threads.

Why?

The people that love to start political discord on the vrod forums toss their cookies, leave their bile sitting out on the picnic table, and then get the thread yanked when an opposing view pisses them off.

This pattern of hit and run seems to be the tactic of the left. They misrepresent, plant seeds of untruth, and then they hide.


What?

[retread]

Originally Posted by Sonrisa

If you can step back for just a moment and decompress, do you think it might just possibly be the tone of this post and all the others like it? I am sure you won't agree. Pity.

(Condescending in three spots)

I will give you experience not theory.

(Personal experience is subjective by nature)

I joined this forum for a couple of reasons. I like and respect Max and know his heart is always in the right place as far as I can see.

I AM very interested in learning about how other people view the world and all its goings on, particularly political, since it impacts everything else.

I am probably not as left as you think, but for the sake of argument I will be as left as you like.

(Ah tricky)

Hit and run.....that's the way you describe us when you can't get a fight.

(That’s how I describe someone who starts a fight and then runs... and/or causes the thread to be closed)

Thin-skinned .....that's the way you describe us when we do fight.

(Nope didn't say that...)

I shouldn't say "we" because the "left" seems to be a lot more diverse in opinions than the "right".

(Ah so the left is right because they have more diverse opinions and the right is wrong because we are more steadfast in our opinions... interesting observation).

I came here looking for answers, not a fight. Truthfully, I have not found many. So, I am engaged in talking to a friend whose integrity is beyond reproach, who is not at all left, nor religious, though very spiritual. We have discussed pretty much everything. Very much a hawk, also.

(If I'm to interpret the above correctly let me paraphrase... you're not on this forum to fight but to enjoy a debate? Cool! The very much a hawk paints a definitive picture left to the imagination of anyone reading and like all good imaginations the sky is the limit. In my mind, "very much a hawk" is someone that relishes war and I do not. A hawk seeks out a kill... I do not.

I do believe 8 years of BC proves being nice and looking the other way only allowed the enemy time to get stronger and plan better. Unless you're ready to bow to Mecca your head will come off. I'd rather die fighting than die like sheep at the slaughter. This does not make me a hawk.)

FINALLY I got some insight as to why people of those opinions feel that way. We still do not agree on everything and respect each other and our positions. I have changed my mind on a couple of things, without having aspersions cast at me personally or my character or my lack of intellect.

(My sister voted for John Kerry... I love her never the less).

People who have to label others in the news as men, women, black, white, or by religion have a definite bigotry in that area. I am a citizen of the US, not a woman citizen. I am a dog owner not a white dog owner, and so on.

(You're welcome to take an enlightened position and be color and gender blind but in some cases gender and color specific news items are needed to differentiate the value of the information. I could provide examples but I'm sure you can think of some yourself.)

You are right, the lefties do not want to be on this forum. They have told me so privately. There reasons are their private business and they are different.

(Oh well... back to my original point.)

I know in my heart the truth of all these matters lies somewhere in the middle, and this all or nothing mentality just is not getting it for me.

(It’s not about "all or nothing" it's about right and wrong, and finding middle ground between right and wrong is what the Middlecrats have been trying to do since 1962. So for them anything is pretty much OK as long as you vote for them.)

On a personal note, I AM afraid if we do not arm ourselves effectively and employ the correct military strategies we are in serious, serious trouble. However we got over there, we are there and is seems to be getting worse by the minute. Of course people can't predict the future. If we all could it would be a perfect world. Do I trust our govt......not by a long shot, though it is undoubtedly the best there is......I don't trust "either side". I think people start out idealistically in most cases, try to do the right thing and power and money and the status quo drags them down after awhile.

(We are armed effectively but I wish we were stronger than we are. Bush is an honest man. He is not perfect like all human beings we are only as good as the information we have. Bush received faulty information on Saddam's nuclear capability because Saddam wanted the world to think he was stronger and more defiant the he was in actuality. If you spend some time researching Iraq after 1980 (Israel's military decision to take out Iraq's nuclear power plant) Saddam professed the desire for nuclear weapons from that point to the point when we took down his government. He played poker and bluffed a WMD capability that most all intelligence agencies took seriously.

Like Bob (see picture)... Saddam thought he could play Monty Python and threaten the hearts of our mother’s children with the blood of 10,000 martyrs and we would back off... Think about it... the guy is mentally ill to do what he did in 1990 and then spit in our eye for 12 years afterward).

I have a very difficult time because of my ingrained personality differentiating between's someone's abilities and integrity and their outside persona.

(I don't have this conflict myself so it's hard to empathize with the concept).

I am absolutely terrified either way, hawk or dove, we are going to get the wrong person who will lead others like them to do the wrong thing.

(Well the last two Democrats to control the presidency sure tried to make peace by smiling, talking, and shaking hands as though treating human beings like human beings would be enough to turn the tide and bring about world peace. If it was up to you and me there would be world peace... for radical Islam world peace can only happen when all the non-believers are dead or have been converted).

I deeply resent the people on the right who say right out, that we lefties don't want the US to succeed. We want them to fail. What kind of convoluted logic is that? We live here too and will bear the results of any bad decisions. To question someone's patriotism because they don't agree with the established reigning party is I believe what the US was founded on. Questioning is not trying to overthrow.

(It seems the party out of power relishes the failures of the party in power because it means they are that much closer to regaining control themselves. The dems M.O. is to make things look worse than they are whenever possible and to ignore the things that are going well. In that light they would enjoy the aftermath of our defeat in Iraq from a political backlash point of view.)

I am not at all interested in conversing with people who want to argue just to show off how brilliant and sarcastic they can be. People who truly want to come to a real understanding and hopefully look for a solution - yes, I call my congressman or woman too, I will agree or disagree with all day long. There are some on this forum, but OMG some of you guys really have one hell of an attitude, and I will leave you to your little circle, I think you get the rest....

(The written word can be interpreted in so many ways. Words too often show no hint of the tone of voice or the smile that might have been present).

There is a possibility that I am too thin-skinned, but funny thing, none of my other rightist friends think so and we have had some wonderful conversations. I don't have to defend myself or my opinions any more than you do yours. We all have them. I'm looking for the commonality; I already know how to disagree and fight and believe me I am quite capable of being at least as nasty as the worst among you. I don't do that kind of thing because I respect Max too much, and I hope you know that, Max. I also respect most of the people on this forum.

(Don't know anyone that thinks you're thin skinned.)

The Libertarians -- the ones I know are anything but bleeding hearts; too tough for me. Read the book that started it all "Libertarianism" by John Hospers (the founder). Because one person write a govt official even though I believe, Capt. Dan, that was a joke, does not mean they represent an entire group. Libertarians in particular tend to be quite unlike each other.

You guys have a good day, If you don't kick me off I'll probably post again some day, but right now on a personal level my hands are full. I need all my energy for what lies ahead.

(the thought of getting kicked off the forum seems to pop up in your comments now and then... You always make a positive contribution to this forum and the other forum. While there may be people that disagree with your perspective on certain issues, everyone here without question would defend your right to speak your mind.)

[Teiwaz]

I couldn't make sense of the first post, and nothing since then has helped :-)

[nelson]

Let me help, Teiwaz. Retread is ranting about folks who throw political bombs around on forums where political discussion is not allowed, but are noticeably absent here, on a perfectly good forum created precisely for that sort of discussion. He makes an intriguing point and I agree.

[nelson]

Sonrisa, I will not say that I haven't found discussion with you worthwhile, or haven't found any answers in your posts, nor that I won't agree with you on anything in this lifetime. You are entitled to your opinions, and as you have found on this forum, we welcome your contributions as well as everyone else's. My personal hope for all discussion here is that it remains relevant and considerate. I think that makes for interesting and productive discussion. Sometimes this will not be the case, which is ok. We all get emotional or off-topic from time to time. Personally I aspire not to. But there are no plans to ban anyone and I do not forsee it happening unless there are blatant personal attacks or other unacceptable behavior.

["shazbat"]

Let me help, Teiwaz. Retread is ranting about folks who throw political bombs around on forums where political discussion is not allowed, but are noticeably absent here, on a perfectly good forum created precisely for that sort of discussion. He makes an intriguing point and I agree.

"Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw political bombs"
It's been my personal impression that those that rant most in other forums are of the conservative persuasion and I am just as happy to not have them here.
As "impressions" are not fact I'll not be disgruntled were someone to provide statistics to prove the issue one way or other. I also won't care.
And I still can't figure what he said in the original post.

[Teiwaz]

I think there are those that are happy to have a spray provided they won't have to do anything more to support their view. This forum threatens them

[The_Man]

Teiwas,
I think you hit the nail on the head. I for one enjoy debate. I have firm opinions and debate is a great exercise in educating myself on the facts that form them.

["shazbat"]

I thought this was a forum to discuss the merits or foibles of religion, policy, mores, financial policy etc.
I didn't know that it was a broadcast arm of the conservative right.
Our good friend Nelson thankfully backed away from the practise I'm about to rant about because no one would respond to the bait.
That practise is the posting of a new thread which is nothing more than a link to a news or blog article.
All, I repeat ALL, news or blog postings are biased in the direction of the publication that originally posted them.
If you want to believe they're truth, trash, the espousings of the anti-Christ or something else that's great but there is no sense in posting such things and then answering them with slaps on the back and a "Way to go man, you showed them" for a job well done. This is crap. Do you get all your opinions from someone else? Have you none of your own?
I'm going to begin answering all of this kind of drivvel with links to cake recipes or travel essays. They're just as valid.

[nelson]

Well I certainly agree that there is no un-biased information. Anywhere. Shazbat you couldn't have hit that bullseye any better.

And I also think you are right on - that debate using reason is far better - and far closer to the original intent of this board - than current events regurgitation. So I will look forward to your recipes. :p heheh

For my part, the reason I have spammed with links or articles is not only [to try] to stimulate discussion, but also as a deliberate tactic with the hope that it would get search engine spiders tracking various relevant topics on our site. Unfortunately increasing a site's ranking in various search engines can take a long time and as I'm sure you know depends on a number of other factors. Anyway I hope you will tolerate and respond if you disagree, I hope that none of us get our beliefs from what we read, and only post things if we are ready to discuss the greater issues at hand, not just some weenie author's carefully crafted piece of work. Of course, in the mean time, the articles I post are the articles I read... which leads back to your main point - no information is completely un-biased. :o I have slowed down a little, as you noticed, because it's not really generating discussion, and, again, back to your point, I think real debate is more important. And I'm willing to debate anyone on nearly any topic, even topics I don't know much about :D - I don't need others around who agree with me, and don't mind whether the environment is hostile or friendly. My only requisite is that discussion be relevant and that we don't let emotions get out of hand. But that doesn't preclude us from totally blasting each other. :)

[retread]

No need to reinvent the wheel


I thought this was a forum to discuss the merits or foibles of religion, policy, mores, financial policy etc.

Right

I didn't know that it was a broadcast arm of the conservative right.

Where did this come from? Or do you just feel out-numbered?

Our good friend Nelson thankfully backed away from the practise I'm about to rant about because no one would respond to the bait.
That practise is the posting of a new thread which is nothing more than a link to a news or blog article.

The purpose is to present an idea that might inspire debate.

All, I repeat ALL, news or blog postings are biased in the direction of the publication that originally posted them.

So post a different view point and let's try to discern the accuracy of every argument.

If you want to believe they're truth, trash, the espousings of the anti-Christ or something else that's great but there is no sense in posting such things and then answering them with slaps on the back and a "Way to go man, you showed them" for a job well done. This is crap. Do you get all your opinions from someone else? Have you none of your own?

If you want to believe they're trash, the truth, or whatever that is your option. If it raises your blood pressure then do something constructive like respond with a defensible counter argument. Sorry cake recipes will not build much of a case.

I'm going to begin answering all of this kind of drivvel with links to cake recipes or travel essays. They're just as valid.

["shazbat"]

Then present your own ideas, not someone elses published ones.
Isn't that bordering on plagiarism?

[retread]

Then present your own ideas, not someone elses published ones.
Isn't that bordering on plagiarism?

No shazbat...

Quoting Webster:

Main Entry:pla*gia*rize
Pronunciation:*pl*-j*-*r*z
Function:verb
Inflected Form:-rized ; -riz*ing

: to present the ideas or words of another as one's own
–pla*gia*rism \-*ri-z*m\ noun
–pla*gia*rist \-rist\ noun

[curt_the_flirt]

Hi everyone.
I have not, to my knowledge, thrown any P-bombs over on Vrodforums, but I do enjoy a good debate. I do agree that I've seen the same behavior, there, and in other forums to which I belong - most notably an international-based photography forum.
What I'm looking for here is the chance to discuss issues logically and rationally. I don't mind a little passion, that's a good thing, as long as it's controlled by logic.
I do know that when I take those little tests that divide you into one of four quadrants (with centrists int the middle), I usually come up as strongly libertarian. Having said that, I belong to the Republican party, because the Libertarian party has no chance of being effective under its current direction. In the sense that I'm fiscally conservative, that is my fit in the GOP. In the sense that I often disagree on social issues, that is where I am a misfit within the GOP.
Now, let's get it on, lol!

["shazbat"]

Welcome Curt.

[nelson]

Welcome, Curt. I think you have a good take on debate and discussion - passionate exchange about important issues, and maybe sometimes even frivolous ones :), always guided by logic and reason. Glad to have you and bring it on!

[The_Man]

Welcome to the forum Curt..

[BABY HUEY]

Retread,
Traffic, Members and Post will take care of themselves with time.
Passion and content are a plenty. Stick around and I am sure that over time this will become one of the best forums for voicing opinions relating to political issues that affect us all.

Part of the reason that this thread is not known is that it is where you are told to go from the 1130cc.com to continue the discussion, yet when you get here, the thread has not been transfered, and there is generally no thread with the same content. This thread is the "BASTARD CHILD" of the 1130cc.com, and that doesn't give many the feeling that they need to be here. Today is the first day that I got off of my butt, and signed onto the forum. Before, there was no way to continue the discussion that was ongoing. That and the thread is listed as political, and it is the dungeon to which the bad people who post political or near political threads are sent.

After reading numerous posts, I bit. Here I am!

This thread will grow when the truly interested people know more about the thread. Many who poke and prod at each other regularly will find this place and they will see that even though the subject is political, it isn't as radical as the impression that I had as a result of being told that a thread was closed and that one had to go to the dungeon to talk like that.