Immigration

[AJo]

OK, so we've had the immigration protest. My question is, if the Hispanic population can be so damn organized as to put these logistical nightmares together, why can't US citizens get together on other issues? Like these "don't buy gas days" and so forth? Kudos to the Hispanics and their organizers, that's all I can say.

AJo

[Freethinker]

Hispanics protested? When? I didn't notice a thing.

[AJo]

In Dallas, there was a half a million Hispanics that filled the streets of downtown. It happened in other areas, as well, though I'm not sure where. I marvel at it. But I can't help but think, how did they get so damned organized, and why can't US citizens do the same for other issues??

We're getting RAPED by the oil companies, and I know if we were organized enough, we could make a difference simply by becoming one. But how?

AJo

[The_Man]

In Dallas, there was a half a million Hispanics that filled the streets of downtown
AJo
I am not sure that all the so-called organization accomplished much. I would like to know the % of legal US citizens vs. illegal aliens that participated the events you referenced.

[Teiwaz]

Minorities will always galvanise under threat more readily than you can mobilise an inert majority. The immigration issue is interesting because illegal immigration has not been a high priority for government, now when something is done everyone realises the extent of the problem, and of the migrants who have come into the US illigally many have been here for some time, made lives for themselves and their families etc. Plus there is an expectation that the status will remain quo.

It is all well and good to say "it's the law!" but if a series of administrations have allowed an issue to become endemic then you can't just change it overnight, and you have to live with your past inaction to some extent. You can act decisively moving forward, but must be compassionate about those already here and accept some responsibility IF there has been a genuine lack of action and leadership on policing migration laws in the past.

Obviously no matter what you do those excluded will be unhappy, and there are broader political issues with Latin America that muddy the waters even further, along with the economic impacts, and a range of other matters.

Just because it is hard though doesn't mean that something proportionate, reasonable, balanced and intelligent should not be done. A country has the right to protect it's own borders and make immigration policy. Every country does, within a broader humanitarian framework. There is just too much emotion and ham fisted handling of the issues at the moment.

[The_Man]

Teiwaz,
Good points as to a compassionate and fair way to correct a problem that has been allowed to multiply itself into the mess we see unfolding here in the US. This problem is growing at an exponential rate and if not confronted now could lead to who knows what.
It is an alarming statistic that the Hispanic birth rate makes up more than 35% of the children born in this country today. The US is the only country that I know of that allows children born on our soil the right to citizenship no matter what. That coupled with the policy allowing family members to be brought over once they reach a certain age, at the rate of illegal immigration will no doubt be a major problem 10-20Years down the road. Action must be taken swiftly.

[The_Man]

This is a political discussion forum, I think that politics is the cause of the immigration problem and don’t think that it will be truly addressed without a public outcry from the citizens that foot the bill for past and present policy mistakes. This is not a Republican/Democratic issue it is one that will affect the the way this country looks 10-20years down the road.

[Teiwaz]

Citizenship for children should come from their parents, absolutely. It is like allowing a thief to pass good title in stolen property. Look at countries like Australia with their mandatory detention laws- you get picked up there without the right visa, you get shipped off to Nauru or somewhere where the media can't easily plop a reporter and where you can't bus in protestors, and your claim for asylum is processed according to law. They should be processing them quicker, but the message they want to send is deterrent as well. I just don't like seeing kids essentially in jail for extended periods while governments apply inadequate resources to processing their parents' claims.

Every country takes in refugees, but there is a need to make sure they are genuine. Allowing kids born on US soil to be US citizens by default makes no sense to me at all.

And I agree, the whle republican/democrat issue is irrelevant here. Whoever is in power needs to hold the line, an inconsistent approach on party politic grounds would be disastrous.

[AJo]

But, can you think of a group people less inert than the ones who are forced to pay inordinately high prices for fuel while the CEO of Exxon is making a $40 million bonus? $40 MILLION??? JFC!

Why is that that WE can't be so organized? I guess I'm just venting because I can't understand why we're being taken advantage of and there's nothing we can do about it.

AJo

[The_Man]

AJo,
I feel your pain bro, but think about it we are one of the most organized countries in the World. Problem is we blindly organize behind the two main political parties for party sake without demanding that either do the right thing. We have the right to vote into office whoever we chose. We have just been making some bad choices IMHO.

[Teiwaz]

But, can you think of a group people less inert than the ones who are forced to pay inordinately high prices for fuel while the CEO of Exxon is making a $40 million bonus? $40 MILLION??? JFC!

Why is that that WE can't be so organized? I guess I'm just venting because I can't understand why we're being taken advantage of and there's nothing we can do about it.

AJo

There is only so much you can do about world oil prices. The US have cheaper petrol than just about every other western and European nation I can think of, and always have. Look at fuel prices in the UK and elsewhere. Demand, from you guys and China notably, is just going up and up. The CEO's salary at Exxon is irrelevant to the barrel price of crude oil.

Are oil prices, in real terms, higher now than they were in the 1973 oil crisis? I have seen figures that show that in fact they are still much lower, in real terms, and taking inflation etc into account. The graphs I have seen actually indicate that oil prices, whilst higher than we have recently been used to, are not really out of step with other aspects of the economy, inflation etc. It feels bad because we have a recent and dramatic rise. Those are not hard numbers though, perhaps someone with more time can hit up a friend at a financial advisory business and get some powerpoints from their market appraisal seminars?

[AJo]

We've been voting the party line....and they've turned out to be bad. There's no good choices out there anymore.

[AJo]

I dunno, Teiwaz, it just FEELS worse. It feels like they're rubbing our nose in it and there's nothing we can do, other than keep paying their ever-rising prices for fuel. I guess what sucks is, that we still do it. I know this thread started out as immigration, but perhaps what I'm really po-ed about is fuel price. :mad:

[The_Man]

I’m by no means an economist so someone splane to me how we got sold on the idea of inflation in the first place. It further complicates the shell game IMHO

[AJo]

Oh, boy....you got me on that one.....maybe Teiwaz can enlighten us. All I remember is, Jimmt Caw-tuh telling us that everything was going to be all right during the days of inflation....

[Teiwaz]

I'm not an economist, but I thought inflation was pretty much inevitable when an economy grew

[PCIncorrect]

Cheap Labor

Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business don't want to pay a decent wage,

consumers don't want expensive produce,

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs

but the bottom line is cheap labor.

"The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie.

There is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, any illegal Alien who sneaks in here with his wife and five children.

He takes a job for five or six dollars an hour.

At that wage with six dependents he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year if he files income tax he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent,

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled they qualify for SSI.

Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for medicare.

All of this is at that taxpayers expense.

He doesn't have to worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He cannot be fired, harassed, or sued.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20 to $30 an hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5 or $6 an hour left after paying their bills and his.

They also pay for increased crime, graffiti, and trash cleanup.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT!"

["shazbat"]

Why is that that WE can't be so organized? I guess I'm just venting because I can't understand why we're being taken advantage of and there's nothing we can do about it.

AJo

Ajo, We as a people are too complacent with our positions and in our lives to protest.
Historically only those that feel discriminated against or down trodden will rise up in protest.
We're all too damned fat and happy. Protest takes you away from your dinner and American Idol. Protest is uncomfortable and inconvenient.
I could say that we're all too full of the crap being fed us by our politicians but it is much more than that. We've had comfortable lives and don't want to disrupt that.
If you want to protest, overload your elected officials with letters, e-mails, phone calls, text messages. Make your point known and invite or implore your friends to do likewise.
Also hurt them in the voting booth.
The old "silent majority" bit is passe. You'll just get run over.

["shazbat"]

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT!"

PC, I feel your pain and agree with many of your points.
Ah, what to do.
Bombard your (not just yours but all of ours) elected officials with mail. Call them to point. We are their constituents, they are supposed to be doing our will.
Realistically money and power go hand in hand. Those that have the money have the power. Those that have the power can arrange it to get more money.
We're a capitalist society and efforts to put controls on profits, percentages and how their made smacks of socialism or communism and the powers that be will put you in a cage for espousing that type of sentiment. Not to mention any measures of that type must first be approved by those that have the money and power. Not Happening. Ever.
Yeah it's wrong.
This whole immigration debacle is based in economics and profits. It's the only reason that it's been allowed to go this far.
This isn't about immigration, it's about money.
And remember "soylent green is people".;)

["shazbat"]

Interesting comic e-mail I received from a friend which would be funny if it didn't strike so close to the truth.

5 million of our older Americans have not signed up yet for their
Medicare, Part D, drug plan--they are old and confused. We are not going
to grant them an extension.

However, 12 million illegal aliens are in our country and we are going to
allow them to stay, protest, procreate, receive support monies, attend
schools, avoid paying income taxes, have our teachers take 300 hours of
ESOL (English as a second language) training at our expense, etc.

WE MUST REALLY DISLIKE OUR OLD PEOPLE! OR, WE MUST REALLY LOVE TACOS

[nelson]

AJo you make some good points. Many US citizens are complacent. In a discussion about serious issues, even immigration, I notice that sitcom (i.e. fallacious but humorous) logic and ignorant coolness are increasingly the response. Among too many there is just a lack of interest. I agree with shazbat, it's much more than a simple explanation. I don't think success alone explains our society's departure from its path to higher and higher achievement.

Also, there are fewer and fewer issues upon which we are all united. I can think of one thing that still unites most Americans -- a foreign attack on our soil. But it seems we have sold much of our remaining unity to diversity-worship, perhaps a naive belief in globalism, and immigrants who do not adopt our culture.

Serious problems must be dealt with or they get worse. What will provoke America to deal with the immigration problem?

[The G]

The Prez gets on TV talking about terrorism and making America safe then and cuts the boarder controls budget. Please.... again he talks out the side of his neck, this is for his rich buddies CHEAP LABOR

[The G]

No they shouldn't be here, but at least they have the balls to stand up and be heard. Can I say balls ??

[The_Man]

Like I have said before, this is not a left or right issue and as far as balls go the American public should show some and demand a quick solution to this ever-growing problem. Politicians on both sides of the isle will side step and delay unless the American people on both sides unite and demand results.

[The G]

Nothing will happen on this issue untill after the elections

[Teiwaz]

Interesting comic e-mail I received from a friend which would be funny if it didn't strike so close to the truth.

5 million of our older Americans have not signed up yet for their
Medicare, Part D, drug plan--they are old and confused. We are not going
to grant them an extension.

However, 12 million illegal aliens are in our country and we are going to
allow them to stay, protest, procreate, receive support monies, attend
schools, avoid paying income taxes, have our teachers take 300 hours of
ESOL (English as a second language) training at our expense, etc.

WE MUST REALLY DISLIKE OUR OLD PEOPLE! OR, WE MUST REALLY LOVE TACOS

It gets really frustrating when you look at and compare where the tax dollars get spent, and where attention is focussed.

In BrisVegas we have something us obstreperous pub illuminati call the Courier Mail Test - ie, if the average punter reading the Courier Mail (Brisbanes major daily paper, and really quite a terrible rag) would look at a decision of the Government, well explained, and still think "What the f*&@k?" then it fails the Courier Mail Test. A basic common sense assessment that ignores all the self-justification and shines a light on relevant actions in their simplest terms.

For example, we are currently negotiating with the Queensland Government in relation to the royalty to be paid by them for the use of our client's invention. It is a very simple system that has to do with specimen containers and their labelling and processing for tests etc. Because the people with whom we initially negotiated were essentially my clients peers and colleagues, they sneered at his invention out of jealousy, and sought to deride it's potential cost saving effects. They point blank refused to negotiate a reasonable agreement, or license fee. So we gave them the 2 page piece of crap they wanted, and we gave them use of the product and system for free. We wanted to get it into use in the field and quantify our results, use Queensland Health as a lab rat, then roll it out nationally, and take the concept to one of the 3 or 4 major global manufacterers of speciment containers and get maybe half a cent on each one they manufactured. We have international patent applications etc. So, long story short, I made sure the initial agreement they insisted on, whilst brief, did not give them the right to have the container labelling or manufacture outsourced. All the could do was affix the part of the label relevant to the patent in house. They have used voluneers for a year and done about 700,000 of them. On their own figures and data, we estimate $38,000,000 in saving annually will flow from the use of the patented system. So, to set up the application of the Courier Mail Test and use their own weight against them like a good Kung Fu Kid, we have them suing the patent, we have their own numbers showing 38 mill in savings from faster processing and other efficiencies, and when we ask for 1% of a conservatively reduced 30 mill in annual savings now that they realise the unsustainabilty of in house application of a key part of the system, well, lets say if my client's old mates in Queensland Health decide to block it because they can't stand to see their ex-colleague making $300,000 per annum in royalties, then they will fail the Courier Mail Test, who will be the first media outlet we'll be calling because the Queensland Government is getting hammered over the state of the health system, water, power etc etc. Nontheless, I expect a herculean struggle to continue to use valuable IP for nothing.

["shazbat"]

Like I have said before, this is not a left or right issue and as far as balls go the American public should show some and demand a quick solution to this ever-growing problem. Politicians on both sides of the isle will side step and delay unless the American people on both sides unite and demand results.

Agreed, we ALL need to be more vocal with our representatives about this.
I emphasize OUR representatives!
They need to work for and be accountable to us, and we need to make them so and hold them accountable with our votes and vocalized opinions between elections.